Working at a Glock factory?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).

Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby kirk5a » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:51 pm

Phoenix1991 wrote:All weapons can potenially be sold illegally and get into the wrong hands. So can and do Glock pistols (among other cases there was a big scandal a few years ago about Glock pistols being present in big quantities on the black market in Iraq).

Very true. But, in this case, that is not what happened.

"Loughner cleared a federal background check and bought the pistol at a big-box sports store near his home on Nov. 30 — two months after the college suspended him. He customized the weapon with an extended ammunition clip, which would have been illegal six years ago."

Again, I just had to see if that was what happened in this case. If there is the idea that criminals must have gotten a weapon illegally, well that just isn't true.

Good that you don't have to work there. Good luck in your search!

http://www.htrnews.com/article/20110112 ... y=nav|head
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:40 pm

Phoenix1991 wrote:I wanted to know what the Pali Canon says to that and talk it through with people who know what I'm talking about (which is sth neither, for example, my parents nor my course instructors qualify for) and hear their interpretations.


Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.” Anguttara Nikaya 5.177

The Pali word is for business or trade, which seems to suggest that it is the business owner, not the employees. Also it is not the employees intent on how those weapons might be used. I am familiar with the Glock weapons and know that it is mostly the police and military that purchase and possess these weapons.

In a similar way, a person might work at a restaurant that serves alcohol (business in intoxicants), but such a person is not drinking the alcohol and is only serving what the customer ordered.

Owning the gun business or owning the restaurant that serves alcohol is another matter and probably not appropriate.

Thought I would just throw out one possible interpretation that might allow you to work there, if you so choose, but understand if you decide it is best not to do so.
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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby Jhana4 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:58 pm

I think that in forming an opinion about this subject it would be useful to stay withing a realm of what is reasonable and down to Earth.

By that, I don't think it is useful or rational to try to imagine every possibility under the sun.

Is it ethical to work in factory that makes pencils out of recycled material? Well, maybe a serial killer with a bad memory will use one of my pencils to kill more people by using my pencil to keep a to-do list to be a more effective killer.

See what I mean?
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:31 pm

Jhana4 wrote:Is it ethical to work in factory that makes pencils out of recycled material? Well, maybe a serial killer with a bad memory will use one of my pencils to kill more people by using my pencil to keep a to-do list to be a more effective killer.
Slippery slope. The OP was about working in a weapons factory. The Buddha gave guidelines about this exact situation. I don't recall the Buddha ever saying it was unwholesome to work in a factory manufactoring pencils.

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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby Jhana4 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:11 pm

Like David wrote earlier, Glocks are mostly used legally by the police and military. While those two bodies are used unethically sometimes by our government, they also keep us safe.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby lojong1 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:29 am

Phoenix1991 wrote:I need a job; some job.
\
In order to what?
I don't see much point in trying to talk you out of it, but I'm sure you have less harmful options. Are they really more frightening in the long run?
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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby Phoenix1991 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:04 pm

kirk5a wrote:If there is the idea that criminals must have gotten a weapon illegally, well that just isn't true.

Good that you don't have to work there. Good luck in your search!

Of course it's not; you're absolutely right.

Thank you! :)


lojong1 wrote:
Phoenix1991 wrote:I need a job; some job.
\
In order to what?
I don't see much point in trying to talk you out of it, but I'm sure you have less harmful options. Are they really more frightening in the long run?

Erm... In order to make a living?

You don't need to talk me into or out of anything - that approach wouldn't work with me anyway; I like making my own decisions. ;)
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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby PeterB » Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:03 pm

Which is presumably why you decided to ask a bunch of total and anonymous strangers what they think about a major life decision.
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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby Phoenix1991 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:39 pm

The only thing I asked for were facts from the Pali Canon and possibly your interpretation of it.

<sarcasm> Sorry for not personally knowing any other Theravada Buddhists and/or people familiar with this matter. </sarcasm>
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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby Annapurna » Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:31 pm

Hey Phoenix, and asking us was perfectly ok.

I do the same thing: I ask a few people for their opinions and then make my own decision.

Keep asking, we're happy to offer what we know.
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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:27 pm

Phoenix1991 wrote:The only thing I asked for were facts from the Pali Canon and possibly your interpretation of it.

Anguttara Nikaya 5.177. Number 1 on the list of wrong livelihoods is trading weapons. Personally, I would interpret that as meaning that working for a company trading weapons is wrong livelihood. That is my interpretation.
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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby Euclid » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:40 pm

Perhaps we should bring the issue away from the suttas and back to you. While we could discuss the semantics of Pali and try to interpret what the Buddha meant (whch of course is very interesting; thanks David, I didn't know that the Pali wording was that specific / had those implications), how does the prospect make you feel? As Kirk5a said, you obviously feel internal conflict about this job, hence the need to come to the forum and pose your question. So perhaps the best course of action is to say to yourself 'I realise that if I accept this job, I will have internal conflict and won't have peace of mind.' Then it becomes a question of how badly you want/need the job vs. how much you value your peace of mind (for a short period of course,) which is something only you yourself can answer.

In any case, I hope something better comes along your way so you aren't forced to make these difficult decisions! :anjali:
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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby Annapurna » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:46 pm

There were a few times in my life when I chose to say 'No' to a 'bad' offer, and hoped that something better would come my way.

And that does happen...!
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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby lojong1 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:55 pm

-- "I'm sure you have less harmful options. Are they really more frightening in the long run?" --
This was about as Theravadin as I could muster without directly reduntant canon quotes.

-- "In order to what?"--
With this I had in mind the "need" that many use as an excuse to do what they know is wrong. When I "said 'No' to a 'bad' offer," I had a choice; but when I said 'Yes' to a 'bad' offer, I "needed" to defend a certain lifestyle.
Looking for something more personal because it is your decision, I get nothing from "make a living".
No biggie. I need to go work some evil myself.
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Re: Working at a Glock factory?

Postby reynaldx » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:05 am

pilgrim wrote:Working at a weapons factory would be way down my list of preferences. But I would take the job if there is little choice and I need the employment. However, even so, I would avoid working in any dept that has a direct input to the production line, testing, packing, selling etc. Acceptable divisions could be support functions like accounts, cleaning, food, human resources, adminstration and so on.



I think it's hard working on a weapon factory.
Use an expandable batons effectively only if you are prepared to use it and have practiced the best technique.
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