Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
manjughosamani
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:15 pm

Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by manjughosamani »

Hello,
retrofuturist wrote:I agree, but they only lead to intoxication in certain volumes... hence presumably why medicinal uses of alcohol in accordance with the Vinaya are permissible for bhikkhus. From that I think it's clear it's not a case of absolutes.
My understanding is that the medicinal exceptions for alcohol use in the vinaya are specific to a certain class of diseases rooted in disturbed vāyus (winds). According to this type of proto-āyurvedic medical theory, vāyu has certain properties that alcohol can serve as an antidote to. There was no distillation of alcohol in the Buddha's time and the medicinal alcohols would have been about 2% alcohol (as they still are in many traditional Indian medicinal alcohols).

As an aside, it would be interesting to find out what types of vinayic medicines are in use now, or if bhikkhus are primarilly seeing allopathic physcicians for their health care needs.

Wishing you all the best.
Sabbe saṅkhārā anicca'ti yadā paññāya passati
Atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiyā.
User avatar
Nibbida
Posts: 466
Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 3:44 am

Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Nibbida »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings bhante,
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The precept as worded is an undertaking to abstain from intoxicants that lead to heedlessness, not an undertaking to abstain from becoming intoxicated.
I agree, but they only lead to intoxication in certain volumes... hence presumably why medicinal uses of alcohol in accordance with the Vinaya are permissible for bhikkhus. From that I think it's clear it's not a case of absolutes.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Ay, but therein lies the rub. The effects of alcohol on the brain are not all-or-nothing. One may only notice intoxication after a certain threshold is reached, but the effects of alcohol on the nervous system (& rest of the body) are graded. So even a little alcohol could produce effects on decision-making (i.e. heedfulness) emotions, and behavior. There's no clear line where it either has/doesn't have an effect.

I'm not sure that the alcohol in the non-alcoholic beer will have any effect because it may be metabolized by the liver as quickly as it's being consumed. One would have to drink an awful lot of it really fast to get any effect. But on the other hand, let's not forget classical conditioning. The brain rapidly creates associations between the taste of alcoholic beverages and the intoxicating effects on levels that we may not even be aware of. So even drinking a beverage completely devoid of alcohol that tastes like an alcoholic beverage can have effects.

Here's an interesting example. A study was done where people came into a lab on different days where they drank one of two beverages, either beverage A or B on any given day. One, say A, had alcohol while the other didn't. The flavors were heavily manipulated to disguise the taste of alcohol to the point where subjects could not tell the difference. However, when rating their feelings of intoxication (e.g. relaxed, etc.), people did rate more of an effect of beverage A. After drinking each one a few times on different days, people came in and sat at a table where glasses labeled A and B were placed before them. Their eyes were monitored and they spent more time looking at A than B. So the conditioned associations happened very rapidly and subtly (but measurably) between the label and the intoxication, and those associations caused a stronger draw on one's attention.

This can get to the point of splitting hairs. But my point is just to point out how subtle and insidious the effects of alcohol can be.

Besides, it's not a case of absolutes. It's a case of Absolut (scroll down on the picture):
absolut-vodka-absolut-nirvana-small-39593.jpg
User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1909
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

It seems to me, based upon my own experience, that a desire to consume alcoholic beverages, or engage in other mood altering substances reveals an attachment and clinging. Since we already know the result of clinging, attachment, and desire, the point of continuing the practice would be what?: Exchange of short term pleasure for long term dukkha?
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
User avatar
Vardali
Posts: 150
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 6:56 am

Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Vardali »

I really wonder how much Christian puritanism is involved in interpreting this precept?
I mean do our Asian posters here from a Buddhist cultural background interprete it with the same level of strictness or lenience as Western converts?
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4647
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

retrofuturist wrote:I agree, but they only lead to intoxication in certain volumes... hence presumably why medicinal uses of alcohol in accordance with the Vinaya are permissible for bhikkhus. From that I think it's clear it's not a case of absolutes.
Medicines that contain alcohol are allowable, under strict conditions.
he Mahāvagga (VI.14.1) allows this medicine for use only as long as the taste, color, and smell of the alcohol are not perceptible.
It would be well to read the whole Vinaya Rule
Effort. The Vibhaṅga defines drinking as taking even as little as the tip of a blade of grass. Thus taking a small glass of wine, even though it might not be enough to make one drunk, would be more than enough to fulfill this factor.
If he does not know that it is alcohol, it is still an offence.

The interpretation of the wording of the precepts is clear enough. The application of it varies widely both in Asia and in the West. All devout Buddhists are Teetotallers. Not all Buddhists are devout. Puritanical is a nasty word to use — it smacks of self-righteousness. The precepts are for one's own benefit, not for imposing on others. How strictly anyone wants to observe them is their own free choice. If you have a beer even if you're dying of thirst, then you broke the precept — that should be clear enough.

If we apply the same flexibility to the other four precepts where will the lines be drawn?
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Ben »

Greetings Bhante,
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:If he does not know that it is alcohol, it is still an offence.
I would appreciate clarification on this point as it seems to be at odds with my own understanding. If there is no intention to break the sila, then where is the wrong-doing? Certainly if one encourages others to drink or speaks in praise of drinking, then I can see the wrong doing. But if one is oblivious to the fact that whatever he or she is drinking contains alcohol, and only discovers it later, then where is the wrong doing in that?
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27854
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,

There's probably pragmatic reasons for it. Imagine this...

"Oh dear, I had no idea this drink had alcohol in it... (wink, wink)... those naughty, naughty laypeople giving me inadmissable offerings (wink, wink, guffaw, hic)"

If it's a Vinaya offence regardless, it cuts out the wink winks and encourages monks to be vigilant about such offerings.

As an aside, the impact of lack of sleep on mindfulness (think about road safety advertising, for example) is often said to exceed that of a small amount of alcohol. I'm sure you've been less mindful before at 2am than after a 0.5% beer during the day.... and mindfulness is whole the point, yes?

I would see sila as a means to an end, not an end in itself.

Mettam
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4647
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Ben wrote:I would appreciate clarification on this point as it seems to be at odds with my own understanding. If there is no intention to break the sila, then where is the wrong-doing?
What if a man meets a woman, who says she's unattached, and sleeps with her, but she is married, where is the wrong-doing? Or, if one receives stolen goods not knowing that they're not stolen. Or if a monk eats after midday, not knowing what time it is.

Isn't there a duty of care to check about such things? Either way, if one doesn't check, and others see what one has done, they will blame us anyway. So take care.
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by daverupa »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Either way, if one doesn't check, and others see what one has done, they will blame us anyway. So take care.
A lot of Buddhist morality seems tied to this sort of approach, especially Vinaya origin stories which have upset laypeople as the source of a rule. Comportment is very important if donated necessities are one's livelihood - and, for a layperson who may or may not be seen as a representative of the Sangha, comportment will matter to greater or lesser degrees depending on whether or not the Dhamma will be disparaged via a perceived moral laxity.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Ben »

Thank you Venerable and Paul

Paul I'm talking about a situation where a person is vigilant but doesn't hav the intention to break sila. A similar situation would be driving in the car and unbeknownst to the driver kills small insects. As I said earlier, my understanding is that intention to break the sila is a key element. Unfortunately I don't hav the time to track down the textual source which ennumerates how sila is broken. Respectfully I disagree with your post and I suggest that if one intends to drink alcohol and if one drinks a drop, then the precept is broken. You are right that the precepts are not an end in themselves but they are an important foundation for the development of sammasamadhi and panna. How one attends to sila conditions the development of samadhi and panna.

Dear Bhante,
What if a man meets a woman, who says she's unattached, and sleeps with her, but she is married, where is the wrong-doing?
Breach of the third precept, in my humble opinion, regardless of whether she is married or not. But if he knew that the woman was married then it is weightier.
Or, if one receives stolen goods not knowing that they're not stolen.
Certainly guilty of taking that which is not freely given if the receiver knew the goods were stolen. If however, he did not know, I don't see how the precept is broken.
Or if a monk eats after midday, not knowing what time it is.
Then surely he is only guilty of not knowing what time it is. Incidentally, what do monks do at mealtimes when they are in-flight and crossing multiple time-zones?
Isn't there a duty of care to check about such things? Either way, if one doesn't check, and others see what one has done, they will blame us anyway.
Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. I'm not talking of a situation of a lazy person or someone who takes advantage of a situation where alcohol could be served by someone who doesn't know one has taken the fifth precept. Perhaps the blame in many situations is the result of the defilements in the other person's mind rather than anything to do with our one's own behaviour. I thought the consideration of blame is when it arises in the mind of the 'wise'.

It seems to me that if one breaks sila when the intention was not present then it appears, and perhaps I am very wrong, to conform to the teachings of jainism rather than buddhism. And so, the crux of my enquiry is really in relation to the role of intention in sila.
So take care
Thank you. I do to the very best of my ability. And I wish you well too.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27854
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:Respectfully I disagree with your post and I suggest that if one intends to drink alcohol and if one drinks a drop, then the precept is broken.
Oh, I don't disagree with that - certainly the precept is broken, no arguments there... but the precepts (as an embodiment of sila) are, as we both agree, a means to an end, not an end in themselves.

Again, take your 0.5% beer... if that consumed on a day where you did several hours meditation, would that be a better day (in terms of benefit/outcome) than a day with zero alcohol content where you indulged mindlessly in sense pleasures, but without breaking sila/precepts.

My point is that the issue of "unbeknownst wrongdoing" for a lay-person is neither here nor there. What matters is the benefit/outcome. And what is the outcome? In your case, a small amount of alcohol was consumed which had a correspondingly small detrimental impact on mindfulness for a short period of time. That is what matters, because that's what happened, regardless of intention, in natural law and experience. Precept and sila is a construct to support good natural outcomes, but it is just that... a construct, an abstraction, a framework - it does not exist in natural law and experience. Spoken another way, where does a precept or sila fit in relation to the five aggregates of experience? How does a precept or sila fit in relation to the six senses?

I suspect you'll find more rewarding answers by delving in and analysing your question from the framework of the five aggregates, than by judging yourself against some psuedo-Vinaya criteria.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Ben »

Hi Retro
Thanks for that reply. I'm in the middle of a huge cooking session so I'll be brief...
To be clear, I am not trying to judge myself. Certainly I am using an example of my recent past experience but I'm merely seeking clarification on what Venerable said and that has to do with the role of intention in sila. And I am seeking clarification so as to assess and correct my own understanding.

As for exploring the nexus between my own query and the five aggregates - that is an interesting avenue of investigation but not one I can attend to immediately. Perhaps later.
Anyway, garlic and ginger are calling me away...
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
Mawkish1983
Posts: 1285
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Essex, UK

Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Mawkish1983 »

Ben wrote:Anyway, garlic and ginger are calling me away...
...and soy sauce and a tiny bit of lemon? Sounds tasty... mmmmmmmmmmmmmm intoxicating
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Ben »

Hi Mawk,
Mawkish1983 wrote:
Ben wrote:Anyway, garlic and ginger are calling me away...
...and soy sauce and a tiny bit of lemon? Sounds tasty... mmmmmmmmmmmmmm intoxicating
Yesterday's cooking session called for freshly roasted and ground cumin and chilli which was mixed with garlic and ginger as a marinade paste for chicken which was sealed in canola and butter, water and fruit chutney added and simmered with oregano and parsley. Precooked for 90 people who will cook their own cous cous and reheat their chicken and chutney mix.
Anyway, it appears my enquiry regarding the role of intention in breaking sila still has not been picked up by anyone.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
Mawkish1983
Posts: 1285
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Essex, UK

Re: Is alcohol allowable in certain cases?

Post by Mawkish1983 »

Ben wrote:Anyway, it appears my enquiry regarding the role of intention in breaking sila still has not been picked up by anyone.
Sorry Ben, I'm really not qualified to answer.

I found retro's answer about fatigue being more damaging to mindfulness than a little alcohol really intruiging, which is why I tried [rather clumsily] to link the idea of intoxication to other non-alcoholic elements, such as food.

Anyway, I suppose the question was about alcohol so I'm :offtopic:

Sorry
Post Reply