Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

In reaction to mindfulness of my life, I had recently decided to attempt to follow an extreme form of morality.

It failed, of course. I have not been able to give up my addictions to contentious speech, alcohol, pornography, laziness, or lack of meditation, and have even been neglecting my daily ritual of offerings to the Buddha, and I will suffer tremendously for this....

...But... I have been sleeping on the floor. And I've strangely noticed that it seems to be more comfortable, in a way.

When a person lays down on something soft, like a bed, the spine isn't in proper alignment. The body is like a pile of jello, with the spine being twisted and sinking through it, instead of a spine sitting on a pile of well-placed stones. So, when I sleep on the floor, I seem to sleep better, it feels more cozy in a way, and when I wake up, my posture seems to be better. I slouch less and sit up more straightly, which is good for avoiding back pain in the long-term (a study on the comparative degrees of back pain among monastics vs. the general population would be interesting). I also like it because, in the possibility that I might one day not have a bed, I am preparing myself for the possibility that I might have to sleep without having a bed because the floor is about as soft as the earth. The lion's posture (similar to the fetus position), too, seems to be the best posture to sleep in, when it comes to proper circulation and proper placement of the body, although I am not used to it, from having never slept in it before.

When monks and Buddhists on uposatha days observe the ninth precept, where and how do they sleep? Does anyone observe this precept of avoiding soft beds and what has been their experience?

Hi
Just to be pedantic, I thought this was the 8th precept.
Anyway, it's the one I find hardest as I have a bad hip and it tends to make it worse.
As for the others:
I'm not really much of a killer anyway
Can't be bothered to take anything unless it's dropped on my lap
Married with one kids and another coming so that one is much reduced by now.
Occasionally the odd bad word slips out at work ...
Gave up drinking two years ago after I got a handover from one glass of wine
My two year old is all the entertainment I get
I thought not eating after 12 would be the hardest, but I've done that for the past two months with no difficulty. I can even sit with my family as they eat and not burn with too much jealousy, though I do feel colder at night.
How do others get on?

Greetings,

A related comment... venerable Dhammanando said elsewhere that the application of the precepts applied from 'dawn to dawn'. In that case, I don't understand how this precept is supportive of one's intensified Uposatha efforts? It would seem to make more sense to avoid high and luxurious beds the night before... or maybe there's something I'm missing here.

Metta,
Retro.

Hi Individual

It is completely understandable to react to periods of hedonistic behaviour by trying to adopt the eight precepts and attempting to keep them perfectly. Its a pendulum motion and it usually results in swings from one extreme to another.
What I recommend you do is to concentrate on the five precepts and keeping them to the best of your ability. Keeping the eighth precept to the exclusion of the others won't be much help to you, whereas the five precepts are the basis of sila and the foundation of the path. If you can keep the five precepts well, then move on to the eight precepts during the uposotha days and during retreats.
Metta

Ben

Just put a suitable mattress right on the floor. That's low and whatever else is necessary. I think the tough one is intoxication as so much in life can be 'intoxicating', try to peer into the 'spirit' of the precepts and you will see the kind of mindfulness they reflect and then you can try to apply that awareness more broadly.

Hi Individual

the maximum hight allowed is about eight finger widths high I believe.
I don't observe this unless I am on retreat and find it comfortable although there are thin mattress from fold out beds provided.

GrahamR wrote: Just to be pedantic, I thought this was the 8th precept.

Correct, it is the 8th precept of the 8 precepts lay people take occasionally. It is the 9th precept of the 10 precepts, but those are normally reserved for the monks, nuns, especially novices.

Manapa wrote: the maximum hight allowed is about eight finger widths high I believe.

Correct, it is from Vinaya, Paac. 87.

That is only about a few inches, I suppose. My platform bed is low, but not that low. But I figure it is 'close' enough since I am not a bhikkhu.

I just use an old, ripped up sleeping bag on the bare floor.

This training is important, it toughens up your body.

In one of the suttas, Buddha discusses how the Licchavis will not be defeated by Mara as long as they sleep on hard wooden beds with wooden pillows. But they will be defeated by Mara in the future since future generations will be sleeping on soft beds.

Greetings,

Further to my earlier question, do you people adhere to this precept on the night before and/or after Uposatha?

Metta,
Retro.

Retro et al,

I observe this precept to refrain from lying on high or luxurious sleeping places from the dawn of the uposatha until the following dawn. This one's not too hard for me. Where I get all forgetful isthe precept to refrain from singing as I find I often do when I'm nervous or joking around at work.

Metta,

Mike

Someone mentioned back pain. I get back pain A LOT. I've never attributed back pain to my sleeping arrangements because I had always assumed sleeping in a bed with a matress was the social 'norm' for good reason. That being said, in the past the pain has got so bad that I've slept on the floor and it does seem to help in the short term.

I've never observed the additional precepts (I stick to the big five) but that's not to say I won't in the future. Maybe sleeping on the floor once a month would help?

Incidentally, I'm a classically trained Pianist so my sitting posture isn't an issue. I have back pain all the time (even now) because I'm 6'7" (2m) tall and this world was not designed for us giants <laughs> sinks are at knee level etc.

Anyway, when is the next Uposatha Day? I'll try sleeping on the floor on Uposatha Days from now on and relay back if it helps . As someone with chronic back pain this could be interesting.

Hi Mawkish

Sorry to hear about the chronic back pain. When we were packing up our house in Victoria prior to moving across the waters to Tasmania, I was sleeping on the floor on one of those dense foam mats you see people take camping with them. It seemed to be doing my back some good.

Here's a calendar of uposotha days:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... a2009.html
Kind regards

Ben

TheDhamma wrote:

Manapa wrote: the maximum hight allowed is about eight finger widths high I believe.

Correct, it is from Vinaya, Paac. 87.

That is only about a few inches, I suppose. My platform bed is low, but not that low. But I figure it is 'close' enough since I am not a bhikkhu.

I knew it was from somewhere, but couldn't remember exactly to reference it, I have a standard bed with draws as I live in a flat with no storage space for towels and sheets which is available, but as long as I am warm I don't really mind

Mawkish1983 wrote:Someone mentioned back pain. I get back pain A LOT. I've never attributed back pain to my sleeping arrangements because I had always assumed sleeping in a bed with a matress was the social 'norm' for good reason. That being said, in the past the pain has got so bad that I've slept on the floor and it does seem to help in the short term.

I've never observed the additional precepts (I stick to the big five) but that's not to say I won't in the future. Maybe sleeping on the floor once a month would help?

Incidentally, I'm a classically trained Pianist so my sitting posture isn't an issue. I have back pain all the time (even now) because I'm 6'7" (2m) tall and this world was not designed for us giants <laughs> sinks are at knee level etc.

Anyway, when is the next Uposatha Day? I'll try sleeping on the floor on Uposatha Days from now on and relay back if it helps . As someone with chronic back pain this could be interesting.

Hi
Vesakha Puja is May 08 2009 This day is sometimes called Buddha day.
Asalha Puja is July 07 2009, Dhamma Day
Pavarana Day October 04 2009 Rains Retreat
Kathina November 01 2009 Robe Ceremony
Go on, give 8 precepts a try once a month or at festivals.
By the way, you make me feel a dwarf and I'm 1.85!