Samatha: supression and cultivation

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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tiltbillings
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by tiltbillings »

Brizzy wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote: I can only speak personally, but the word 'abandon' actually fits my own experiences. It also seems to be the english word that has been used in translation. The similes that are given regarding the abandoning of the hindrances also point to a 'releasing' or 'freedom from' rather than suppressing.
But the reality is that one is only "free" from the negative stuff for awhile until there is actual insight, which is what leads to the real abandoning.
Although the abandoning is temporary, insights are involved. Even if it is merely the insight that there 'IS' something more. I think that if the above similes are carefully read they help shed light on how the hindrances are to be abandoned and especially what the experience of abandoning them is like.
Short of becoming arahant, there is always something that needs to be done. Also, the attainment of jhana in and of itself is no guarantee of insight.

I certainly have no beef with the text you quote, but like a lot of suttas it also presupposes a great deal having already taken place. As for insight:
  • "Here, O bhikkhus, when sensuality is present, a bhikkhu knows with understanding: 'I have sensuality,' or when sensuality is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no sensuality.' He understands how the arising of the non-arisen sensuality comes to be; he understands how the abandoning of the arisen sensuality comes to be; and he understands how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned sensuality comes to be. -- MN 10
And here the "abandoning" is not the temporary abandoning of jhana in and of itself, nor of "actively recollecting," which seems to suggests thinking about something already past; rather, it is what unfolds 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized ,' as well as the text quoted above: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 31#p168461" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by sattva »

Dear Ben,
I have to admit that I was very interested in this thread, but find it confusing. I don't know if it is possible to do this, but could i make a suggestion? Is there a way to ask your questions of one or even several teachers and get their replies to the questions raised? I don't know about others, but i would find it very helpful. Thanks.
with metta,
sattva/louise
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Ben
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by Ben »

Hi Louise,

I'll see what I can do to add some clarification from respected teachers.
I apologise for the confusion.
with metta,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Brizzy
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by Brizzy »

I posted this link on another posting, I personally feel it has a lot to offer with regard to the questions regarding the hindrances, jhana and meditation in general within the Buddha's dispensation.

http://theravadin.wordpress.com/2011/12 ... your-mind/

Metta

:smile:
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Nyana
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by Nyana »

The discourses offer specific meditation subjects for working with the hindrances. There is also a very ancient tradition where the meditation teacher and student assess the students temperament and disposition, and the student is given a specific meditation subject on this basis. For example, if the student has a predominantly passionate, lustful disposition then the meditation subject of an unattractive object (asubhanimitta) is given as the student's main meditation practice. If the student has a more aggressive, impatient type of personality then loving-kindness (mettā) is given as the students main meditation practice, and so on.

A few sutta passages....

Desire for Sensual Pleasure (Kāmacchanda)

To remedy desire for sensual pleasure we are advised to attend to an unattractive object (asubhanimitta). AN 1.2 Nīvaraṇappahāṇavagga:
  • No other phenomenon do I know, monks, on account of which unarisen desire for sensual pleasure does not arise and arisen desire for sensual pleasure is abandoned as much as on account of this: an unattractive object. For one who attends properly to an unattractive object, unarisen desire for sensual pleasure does not arise and arisen desire for sensual pleasure is abandoned.

Aversion (Byāpāda)

In order to abandon aversion we are instructed to develop the liberation of the mind through loving-kindness (mettācetovimutti). AN 1.2 Nīvaraṇappahāṇavagga:
  • No other phenomenon do I know, monks, on account of which unarisen aversion does not arise and arisen aversion is abandoned as much as on account of this: the liberation of the mind through loving-kindness. For one who attends properly to the liberation of the mind through loving-kindness, unarisen aversion does not arise and arisen aversion is abandoned.
Lethargy and Drowsiness (Thīnamiddha)

As an antidote to lethargy and drowsiness we are advised to develop the productive mental components of arousal (ārambhadhātu), persistence (nikkāmadhātu), and energetic endeavor (parakkāmadhātu). Other passages advise to practice walking meditation, or the recognition of light. AN 1.2 Nīvaraṇappahāṇavagga:
  • No other phenomenon do I know, monks, on account of which unarisen lethargy and drowsiness does not arise and arisen lethargy and drowsiness is abandoned as much as on account of this: the component of arousal, the component of persistence, the component of energetic endeavor. For one who has aroused energy, unarisen lethargy and drowsiness does not arise and arisen lethargy and drowsiness is abandoned.
Restlessness and Anxiety (Uddhaccakukkucca)

The remedy for restlessness and anxiety is the development of a pacified mind (cetaso vūpasama). Other passages suggest taking up mindfulness of breathing. AN 1.2 Nīvaraṇappahāṇavagga:
  • No other phenomenon do I know, monks, on account of which unarisen restlessness and anxiety does not arise and arisen restlessness and anxiety is abandoned as much as on account of this: a pacified mind. For one with a pacified mind, unarisen restlessness and anxiety does not arise and arisen restlessness and anxiety is abandoned.
Doubt (Vicikicchā)

Thorough reflection (yoniso manasikāra) is suggested in order to work with any doubts that we may have about the veracity and effectiveness of the dhamma. AN 1.2 Nīvaraṇappahāṇavagga:
  • No other phenomenon do I know, monks, on account of which unarisen doubt does not arise and arisen doubt is abandoned as much as on account of this: thorough reflection (yoniso manasikāra). For one who thoroughly reflects, unarisen doubt does not arise and arisen doubt is abandoned.
Generally speaking, the cultivation and development of whichever meditation subject is taken up will lead to the suppression of the hindrances and the appearance and strengthening of the jhāna factors. This developmental process is nicely explained in SN 46.3:
  • Dwelling thus withdrawn, one recollects that Dhamma and thinks it over. Whenever, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwelling thus withdrawn recollects that Dhamma and thinks it over, on that occasion the enlightenment factor of mindfulness is aroused by the bhikkhu; on that occasion the bltikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of mindfulness; on that occasion the enlightenment factor of mindfulness comes to fulfilment by development in the bhikkhu.

    Dwelling thus mindfully, he discriminates that Dhamma with wisdom, examines it, makes an investigation of it. Whenever, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwelling thus mindfully discriminates that Dhamma with wisdom, examines It, makes an investigation of it, on that occasion the enlightenment factor of discrimination of states is aroused by the bhikkhu; on that occasion the bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of discrimination of states; on that occasion the enlightenment factor of discrimination of states comes to fulfilment by development in the bhikkhu.

    While he discriminates that Dhamma with wisdom, examines it, makes an investigation of it, his energy is aroused without slackening. Whenever, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu's energy is aroused without slackening as he discriminates that Dharnma with wisdom, examines it, makes an investigation of it, on that occasion the enlightenment factor of energy is aroused by the bhikkhu; on that occasion the bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of energy; on that occasion the enlightenment factor of energy comes to fulfilment by development in the bhikkhu.

    When his energy is aroused, there arises in him spiritual rapture. Whenever, bhikkhus, spiritual rapture arises in a bhikkhu whose energy is aroused, on that occasion the enlightenment factor of rapture is aroused by the bhikkhu; on that occasion the bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of rapture; on that occasion the enlightenment factor of rapture comes to fulfilment by development in the bhikkhu.

    For one whose mind is uplifted by rapture the body becomes tranquil and the mind becomes tranquil. Whenever, bhikkhus, the body becomes tranquil and the mind becomes tranquil in a bhikkhu whose mind is uplilted by rapture, on that occasion the enlightenment factor of tranquillity is aroused by the bhikkhu; on that occasion the bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of tranquillity; on that occasion the enlightenment factor of tranquillity comes to fulfilment by development in the bhikkhu.

    For one whose body is tranquil and who is happy the mind becomes concentrated. Whenever, bhikkhus, the mind becomes concentrated in a bhikkhu whose body is tranquil and who is happy, on that occasion the enlightenment factor of concentration is aroused by the bhjkkhu; on that occasion the bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of concentration; on that occasion the enlightenment factor of concentration comes to fulfilment by development in the bhikkhu.

    He closely looks on with equanimity at the mind thus concentrated. Whenever, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu closely looks on with equanimity at the mind thus concentrated, on that occasion the enlightenment factor of equanimity is aroused by the bhikkhu; on that occasion the bhikkhu develops the enlightenment factor of equanimity; on that occasion the enlightenment factor of equanimity comes to fulfilment by development in the bhikkhu.
There are a number of other excellent discourses related to this development in the Bojjhaṅgasaṃyutta of the Saṃyuttanikāya. And of course, what these discourses summarize in a few paragraphs can encapsulate years of dedicated practice.
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Ben
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by Ben »

Thank you Geoff for mentioning those discourses.
My own experience has been that by practicing anapana-sati to develop samadhi one merely maintains the awareness of the touch of the breath for longer and longer periods until sama-samadhi is achieved. This practice is done in the absence of other contemplations such as the ones you and Brizzy have enumerated. And the experience of many practitioners is that the method is effective.
So, I am interested in the mechanics of the development of jhana within that particular context.

I am also aware of the Nivarana Sutta which says the four satipatthanas should be developed to abandon the hindrances. The four satipatthanas when developed will lead to the permanent abandonment of the nivaranas but my question relates to their temporary abandonment/suspension/suppression.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by Modus.Ponens »

This is a side note to the topic, that I think is noteworthy. Buddhists are afraid of to use the word supression as it could possibly mean repression. They are two different defense mechanisms, the former being a mature defense mechanism and the latter, a neurotic deffense mechanism. About mature deffense mechanisms, wikipedia says:

"These are commonly found among emotionally healthy adults and are considered mature, even though many have their origins in an immature stage of development. They have been adapted through the years in order to optimize success in life and relationships. The use of these defences enhances pleasure and feelings of control. These defences help us to integrate conflicting emotions and thoughts, whilst still remaining effective. Those who use these mechanisms are usually considered virtuous."

For more, read this wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_mechanisms" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:focus:
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by Nyana »

Ben wrote:My own experience has been that by practicing anapana-sati to develop samadhi one merely maintains the awareness of the touch of the breath for longer and longer periods until sama-samadhi is achieved.... So, I am interested in the mechanics of the development of jhana within that particular context.
The developmental process is similar regardless of one's chosen meditation subject: By attending to the object-support, in this case the breath, the hindrances are starved of their cognitive and affective nutriments, and the jhāna factors are stabilized.

In terms of method, this is taught in brief in the Paṭisambhidāmagga Ānāpānassatikathā and in detail in the Vimuttimagga, the Visuddhimagga, and numerous contemporary texts and dhamma talks pertaining to ānāpānassati.
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by gavesako »

Brizzy wrote:
gavesako wrote:Tadanga-nibbana is mentioned in the Anguttaranikaya. It is a state that comes about momentarily when external conditions happen, fortuitously, to be such that no idea of "I" or "mine" arises. Tadanga-nibbana is momentary cessation of the idea "I," "mine," due to favorable external circumstances. At a higher level than this, if we engage in some form of Dharma practice, in particular if we develop concentration, so that the idea of "I," "mine" cannot arise, that extinction of "I," "mine" is called vikkhambhana-nibbana. And finally, when we succeed in bringing about the complete elimination of all defilements, that is full Nirvana, total Nirvana.

-- Buddhadasa

http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhikk ... r_of_I.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hi,

How do we arrive at or what do we recollect for the..... 'external conditions happen, fortuitously', could you please reference the term 'Tadanga-nibbana' and 'vikkhambhana-nibbana' within the Anguttaranikaya.
There is this Sutta which mentions it:

Khandha Samy. 43: iii,43:
SN 22:43; III 43: “Rūpassa tveva, bhikkhave, aniccataṃ viditvā vipariṇāmaṃ virāgaṃ
nirodhaṃ, pubbe ceva rūpaṃ etarahi ca sabbaṃ rūpaṃ aniccaṃ dukkhaṃ vipariṇāmadhammanti,
evametaṃ yathābhūtaṃ sammappaññāya passato ye sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā te
pahīyanti. Tesaṃ pahānā na paritassati, aparitassaṃ sukhaṃ viharati, sukhavihārī bhikkhu
‘tadaṅganibbuto’ti vuccati.
Having seen, monks, the impermanence, changeability, absence of lust for and ceasing of matter (feeling, perception, determinations, consciousness), and that matter (...consciousness) was formerly as it is now, thus seeing with right understanding as it actually is that all matter (...consciousness) is impermanent, unpleasurable, of a nature to change, then whatever is the arising of sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair, those are eliminated. These being eliminated, there is no anxiety. Not having anxiety he dwells at ease. Dwelling at ease, this monk is called 'extinguished to that extent' (tad-anga-nibbuto).
Commentary Spk II 247: Tadaṅganibbutoti tena vipassanaṅgena kilesānaṃ nibbutattā tadaṅganibbuto ("It is called 'extinguished to that extent' because of the extinguishing of the defilements due to insight")


In the commentaries the 5 types of 'overcoming' are mentioned, and this is where Ajahn Buddhadasa gets his ideas from:
pahāna
'overcoming', abandoning. There are 5 kinds of overcoming: (1) overcoming by repression (vikkhambhana-pahāna), i.e. the temporary suspension of the 5 hindrances (nīvarana, q.v.) during the absorptions, (2) overcoming by the opposite (tadanga-pahāna), (3) overcoming by destruction (samuccheda-pahāna), (4) overcoming by tranquillization (patipassaddhi-pahāna), (5) overcoming by escape (nissarana-pahāna).

(1) "Among these, 'overcoming by repression' is the pushing back of adverse things, such as the 5 mental hindrances (nīvarana q.v), etc., through this or that mental concentration (samādhi, q.v.), just as a pot thrown into moss-clad water pushes the moss aside....

(2) " 'Overcoming by the opposite' is the overcoming by opposing this or that thing that is to be overcome, by this or that factor of knowledge belonging to insight (vipassanā q.v.), just as a lighted lamp dispels the darkness of the night. In this way, the personality-belief (sakkāyaditthi, s. ditthi) is overcome by determining the mental and corporeal phenomena ... the view of uncausedness of existence by investigation into the conditions... the idea of eternity by contemplation of impermanency ... the idea of happiness by contemplation of misery....

(3) "If through the knowledge of the noble path (s. ariyapuggala) the fetters and other evil things cannot continue any longer, just like a tree destroyed by lightning, then such an overcoming is called 'overcoming by destruction' " (Vis.M. XXII, 110f.).

(4) When, after the disappearing of the fetters at the entrance into the paths, the fetters, from the moment of fruition (phala) onwards, are forever extinct and stilled, such overcoming is called the 'overcoming by tranquillization'.

(5) "The 'overcoming by escape' is identical with the extinction and Nibbāna" (Pts.M. I. 27). (App.).
http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/pahaana.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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retrofuturist
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Nana wrote:SN 46.3...
Awesome. :thumbsup:

Furthermore, I see no reason why the activity outlined in the sutta need be constrained to formal sitting/walking "meditation" practice either, and why it cannot be integrated with daily activities. Such samatha could (and indeed, should!) be experienced walking down the street for example, so long as the necessary supports and conditions were in place. The only sense in which formal "meditation" need be different in this sense is that it is invariably done to the exclusion of other activities, and as such, can be undertaken with greater precision, impact and attention.

Why do I mention this? Just to bring to attention that calm and tranquility should be a way of life for a Buddhist, rather than just an outcome achieved through the rarified conditions of an occasional retreat sitting. It's commonly acknowledged and recognised that vipassana can be done "off the cushion", but such a recognition in relation to samatha is rarer.
Nana wrote:AN 1.2...
Awesome. :thumbsup:

And in that context...
Ben wrote:Do we enter Jhana as a result of actively suppressing the hindrances or does supression occur passively as a result of developing concentration?
... I would frame the question/answer slightly differently and say it is achieved through cultivation and balancing of...

The Five Spiritual Faculties
http://www.vipassana.com/resources/bodh ... ulties.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:In the practice of the Dhamma each of these faculties has simultaneously to perform its own specific function and to harmonize with the other faculties to establish the balance needed for clear comprehension. The five come to fullest maturity in the contemplative development of insight, the direct road to awakening. In this process the faculty of faith provides the element of inspiration and aspiration which steers the mind away from the quagmire of doubt and settles it with serene trust in the Triple Gem as the supreme basis of deliverance. The faculty of energy kindles the fire of sustained endeavor that burns up obstructions and brings to maturity the factors that ripen in awakening. The faculty of mindfulness contributes clear awareness, the antidote to carelessness and the prerequisite of penetration. The faculty of concentration holds the beam of attention steadily focused on the rise and fall of bodily and mental events, calm and composed. And the faculty of wisdom, which the Buddha calls the crowning virtue among all the requisites of enlightenment, drives away the darkness of ignorance and lights up the true characteristics of phenomena.

Just as much as the five faculties, considered individually, each perform their own unique tasks in their respective domains, as a group they accomplish the collective task of establishing inner balance and harmony. To achieve this balanced striving the faculties are divided into two pairs in each of which each member must counter the undesirable tendency inherent in the other, thus enabling it to actualize its fullest potential. The faculties of faith and wisdom form one pair, aimed at balancing the capacities for devotion and comprehension; the faculties of energy and concentration form a second pair aimed at balancing the capacities for active exertion and calm recollection. Above the complementary pairs stands the faculty of mindfulness, which protects the mind from extremes and ensures that the members of each pair hold one another in a mutually restraining, mutually enriching tension.
... and that the hindrances are suppressed (note, not "repressed") by these means.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Samatha: supression and cultivation

Post by Nyana »

retrofuturist wrote:Furthermore, I see no reason why the activity outlined in the sutta need be constrained to formal sitting/walking "meditation" practice either, and why it cannot be integrated with daily activities.
Yes. Optimally, we can begin to learn to maintain appropriate attention and mental composure in all four postures. AN 4.12 Sīla Sutta:
  • If while he is walking, standing, sitting, or reclining, a monk is free from greed and ill will, from sloth and torpor, from restlessness and worry, and has discarded doubt, then his will has become strong and impregnable; his mindfulness is alert and unclouded; his body is calm and unexcited; his mind is concentrated and collected.
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