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Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:00 pm
by manjusri
I attended a weekend teaching recently from a Nyingma teacher on Ju Mipham's Profound Instruction on the View of the Middle Way. The shamatha that was taught was shamatha on a non-referential object, i.e., the mind. I have had shamatha teachings before from a number of Tibetan teachers in which nine stages are enumerated. This teacher mentioned an enumeration in five stages (a grouping of nine stages into five), but could not give me a specific scriptural reference for this. I thought, perhaps, this might be a good place to ask those here if anyone has ever encountered such a grouping, and in what text? Any feedback would be very much appreciated.

Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:12 pm
by bodom
Hi manjusri

As this is a Theravadin forum you might want to try posting your question on our Mahayana sister site:

Dharma Wheel
http://www.dharmawheel.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They will be able to help you further. :smile:

:anjali:

Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:41 pm
by manjusri
bodom wrote:Hi manjusri

As this is a Theravadin forum you might want to try posting your question on our Mahayana sister site:

Dharma Wheel
http://www.dharmawheel.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They will be able to help you further. :smile:

:anjali:
Thank you for the advice, bodom; I'll certainly post my question there. I realized afterwards that this formulation into nine mental abidings is said to have originated with Asanga (4th c.).

Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:58 am
by vitellius
manjusri wrote:I realized afterwards that this formulation into nine mental abidings is said to have originated with Asanga (4th c.).
Exactly. As far as I understand, this was his way of training that should bring to the first jhana.

Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:37 am
by manjusri
Oleksandr wrote:
manjusri wrote:I realized afterwards that this formulation into nine mental abidings is said to have originated with Asanga (4th c.).
Exactly. As far as I understand, this was his way of training that should bring to the first jhana.
Yes, right up to the first jhana, but not fully in it, i.e., access concentration (upacara samadhi).

Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:47 pm
by vitellius
manjusri wrote:Yes, right up to the first jhana, but not fully in it, i.e., access concentration (upacara samadhi).
Isn't access concentration a strictly Theravadin concept?

If yes, why would you think that it is equal to the 9th stage of Asanga?

It can equal to another stage in Asanga's system or it can be different in its characteristics from any of them, don't you think so?

Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:30 am
by manjusri
Oleksandr wrote:
manjusri wrote:Yes, right up to the first jhana, but not fully in it, i.e., access concentration (upacara samadhi).
Isn't access concentration a strictly Theravadin concept?

If yes, why would you think that it is equal to the 9th stage of Asanga?

It can equal to another stage in Asanga's system or it can be different in its characteristics from any of them, don't you think so?
I direct you to an older post on shamatha that many here posted to. Hopefully, this will help clarify your question:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=8957" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:39 am
by manjusri
According to the Nyingma teacher whose teaching I attended recently, the nine and the five stages of shamatha are found, as he says, in the "source texts of the Buddha's canon." He adds, "The 9 stages are specifically in the shamatha instructions for the Shravaka." Can anyone corroborate this, given my lack of knowledge of the Shravakayana?

Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:34 am
by Kenshou
In the Pali canon there is no direct equivalent of Tibetan Buddhism's 9 stages that I have seen or heard of.

Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:12 pm
by manjusri
Kenshou wrote:In the Pali canon there is no direct equivalent of Tibetan Buddhism's 9 stages that I have seen or heard of.
Ok, I'll take your word for it. However, in the Nyingma tradition, you have the nine yanas or vehicles, the first of which is the shravakayana, and I have seen the nine stages of shamatha enumerated there.

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Shravaka_yana" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What do you (and others) make of this?

Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:19 pm
by daverupa
manjusri wrote:What do you (and others) make of this?
dharma =/= dhamma

:spy:

Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:20 pm
by Kenshou
Well, this isn't Nyingma.

Similar to what Dave has said, Theravada =/= the idea of a Shravakayana that exists in the context of Mahayana.

Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:52 pm
by manjusri
Kenshou wrote:Well, this isn't Nyingma.

Similar to what Dave has said, Theravada =/= the idea of a Shravakayana that exists in the context of Mahayana.
I'm probably wading into a mine field here, but could you please clarify? Are you (and Dave) suggesting that the Nyingma tradition (and I assume this may be true of the other Tibetan Buddhist schools as well?), having only an "idea" of what tenets shravakas hold to, are completely off the mark ( =/= )? So what does the Theravada tradition have to say about the tenets Hearers hold to? Is there any reference to how shamatha and vipashyana were practiced by them? I actually recall that they were not practiced separately from one another back then, but I am trying to fit that in with what the Tibetan Buddhist tradition has to say about them. I also thought it wise to tap into the resource of practitioners here who know far more than I. So any clarity you have and/or misconceptions you can eradicate is appreciated.

Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:11 pm
by daverupa
manjusri wrote:Is there any reference to how shamatha and vipashyana were practiced by them?
This is question which has spawned many threads; this .pdf offers a few citations of the phrase "samatha & vipassana" in the Suttas, which is helpful for starting out. I also recommend the .pdf of A Swift Pair of Messengers by Bhante Sujato, which covers this fairly well. Other resources abound.
manjusri wrote:I actually recall that they were not practiced separately from one another back then, but I am trying to fit that in with what the Tibetan Buddhist tradition has to say about them.
Hmm. Well, if you insist, then good luck!

:heart:

Re: Shamatha in Five (not nine) Stages?

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:14 pm
by Kenshou
I don't mean to make it a minefield. There are probably people who might be able to describe this better.

The idea of the yana of a sravaka that exists in the Mahayana thought-world exists in contrast with various other yanas and in a context with a number of implications and assumptions that are not necessarily overlapping with the Theravada. And so even though it might be safe to say, in general terms, that Theravada is a "discipe's vehicle", the methods under the same name that exist in the Mahayana context do not necessarily align with what Theravadins actually think and do.

Not to say that it is necessarily "completely off the mark", but differing in various details. And the devil is in the details, they say. If you want to know what the Theravada tradition actually does do in more detail, there's plenty of introductory resources around here.