There is currently a discussion going on in this forum about the valididy of a Bifrucated theory of Jhana (i.e. Samatha Jhana and Vipassana Jhana). I would like to be able to participate in the discussion, but I am not sure if I am knowlegable enough about what exactly these terms mean and whether or not they are used with diferent meanings by diferent groups. This is my question:
According to the traditions that classify Jhana into Samatha and Vipassana subtybes, what is the definition of Samatha Jhana, and What is the definition of Vipassana Jhana?
I have heard from some sources that Samatha Jhana is entered by directing the mind's attention to a single distinct point of focus (e.g. Kasina, or the tip of the nose or upper lip as some groups practice Anapanasati), whereas Vipassana Jhana is defined as Jhana that is entered with awareness that is not restricted to a point, but I'm not sure if that is a complete and exhaustive definition.
Can someone give the full definitions, preferably citing sources such as the commentaries, sub-commentaries, Vissudhimagga, or the works of Mahasi Sayadaw? I don't want to end up misrepresenting anyone in discussion.
Interpretations of Jhana
Interpretations of Jhana
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
- Modus.Ponens
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Re: Interpretations of Jhana
Hello
There are two definitions of samatha jhana. Everybody accepts that the samatha jhanas are characterized by the standard formula in the suttas:
"And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration."
— SN 45.8
What distinguishes the 2 definitions is that in the "sutta jhanas" it is possible to do vipassana while in the jhanas. On the other hand, the "comentarial jhanas" define jhana as having your whole mind absorbed into a single point, meaning that there's no awareness of the body or any one of the five senses. Furthermore, there is no chance of doing vipassana in this state because the mind is rigidly still, focusing on the object.
Vipassana jhanas are states of concentration similar to the sutta jhanas but which were attained through the continuous practice of mindfulness/vipassana.
For a good discussion on what is jhana, see this topic: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5761" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There are two definitions of samatha jhana. Everybody accepts that the samatha jhanas are characterized by the standard formula in the suttas:
"And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration."
— SN 45.8
What distinguishes the 2 definitions is that in the "sutta jhanas" it is possible to do vipassana while in the jhanas. On the other hand, the "comentarial jhanas" define jhana as having your whole mind absorbed into a single point, meaning that there's no awareness of the body or any one of the five senses. Furthermore, there is no chance of doing vipassana in this state because the mind is rigidly still, focusing on the object.
Vipassana jhanas are states of concentration similar to the sutta jhanas but which were attained through the continuous practice of mindfulness/vipassana.
For a good discussion on what is jhana, see this topic: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5761" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
Re: Interpretations of Jhana
Thank you so much for your answer
Are the Vipassana Jhanas described as having all the main factors of the sutta jhanas (e.g. piti, sukha, upekkha)?Modus.Ponens wrote:
Vipassana jhanas are states of concentration similar to the sutta jhanas but which were attained through the continuous practice of mindfulness/vipassana.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
Re: Interpretations of Jhana
There are some good references in the thread linked to above.
Leigh Brasington's page on Interpretations of the Jhanas
http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
gives a summary of what various teachers teach.
Vipassana Jhanas are described in U Pandita's book In This Very Life.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pan ... hanas.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And in these talks: http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/?search ... =-rec_date" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm not sure if his description of "Vipassana Jhana" is really supposed to be exactly the same as the "Sutta Jhana", but it is definitely different from "Visuddhimagga Jhana".
As you can see from the above link to Leigh's site, there are a number of interpretations out there... Some of the interpretations of "Sutta Jhana" could be argued to be similar to some of what U Pandita describes. However, his description also includes the "progress of insight knowledges", so it's difficult to really answer such a question.
Mike
Leigh Brasington's page on Interpretations of the Jhanas
http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
gives a summary of what various teachers teach.
Vipassana Jhanas are described in U Pandita's book In This Very Life.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pan ... hanas.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And in these talks: http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/?search ... =-rec_date" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
U Pandita discusses Vipassana Jhanas in terms of the development of the Jhana factors.Bakmoon wrote: Are the Vipassana Jhanas described as having all the main factors of the sutta jhanas (e.g. piti, sukha, upekkha)?
I'm not sure if his description of "Vipassana Jhana" is really supposed to be exactly the same as the "Sutta Jhana", but it is definitely different from "Visuddhimagga Jhana".
As you can see from the above link to Leigh's site, there are a number of interpretations out there... Some of the interpretations of "Sutta Jhana" could be argued to be similar to some of what U Pandita describes. However, his description also includes the "progress of insight knowledges", so it's difficult to really answer such a question.
Mike
- tiltbillings
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Re: Interpretations of Jhana
The idea of vipassana jhanas is derived from the actual experiences of those doing Mahasi Sayadaw vipassana practice.mikenz66 wrote:I'm not sure if his description of "Vipassana Jhana" is really supposed to be exactly the same as the "Sutta Jhana", but it is definitely different from "Visuddhimagga Jhana".
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Interpretations of Jhana
Sure, but the Jhana factors described are as in the Suttas, and the mode of concentration reads a lot like MN 111:tiltbillings wrote:The idea of vipassana jhanas is derived from the actual experiences of those doing Mahasi Sayadaw vipassana practice.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[Off-topic in this section, but the progression described by U Pandita is essentially the Classical Progress of Insight described in the Visuddhimagga. Which one assumes was also based on the experience of practitioners, and which Mahasi Sayadaw has written about explicitly http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progress/progress.html. However, the progress of Insight is a considerable elaboration on the sutta discussions of insight. See, for example: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 35#p177835.]"There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.
Mike
Mike
Re: Interpretations of Jhana
Good critical essay:
Jhana and Lokuttara-Jhana: http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebmed092.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Jhana and Lokuttara-Jhana: http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebmed092.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Interpretations of Jhana
http://www.audiodharma.org/series/135/talk/1854/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Samadhi: Exploring the Range of Teachings and Controversies on Concentration & Jhana
Samadhi: Exploring the Range of Teachings and Controversies on Concentration & Jhana
There is a wide range of views and opinions on the various concentration practices in Buddhism, and on how they relate to insight meditation practices. We compared different views, including controversies, and considered how these views can inform and enrich our meditation practice. The day included some meditation practice periods.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."