Is short breath "better" for Jhana than long breath?

[LonesomeYogurt]

I have recently come across some who argue that the Buddha recommended short breaths instead of long breaths for anapanasati, or that he claimed long breaths would give way to short breaths as concentration deepened. I find the opposite with myself; as I calm down, my breath becomes incredibly slow and subtle. Is this appropriate, or should I try and go for short, subtle breaths? Does the scheme of the anapanasati tetrads imply that one should move from long to short breaths or simply that both styles should be known when and if they occur?

Thanks!

[tiltbillings]

Worrying about your length of breatn will never get you to jhana. Just breathe and pay attention.

[mikenz66]

Hi LY,

Trying to deduce such details from the suttas strikes me as futile. These things can be interpreted in many ways.

What is actually meant by "short" and "long"? Consider the simile in the Satipatthana Sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .soma.html

"Just as a clever turner or a turner's apprentice, turning long, understands: 'I turn long'; or turning short, understands: 'I turn short'; just so, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, when he breathes in long, understands: 'I breathe in long'; or, when he breathes out long, understands: 'I breathe out long'; or, when he breathes in short, he understands: 'I breathe in short';

From this simile, I would guess that "short" actually means "shallow" (not "short time") and, indeed, shallowness is what tends to happen as one becomes more concentrated, as you say.


Mike

[James the Giant]

I have recently come across some who argue .... ... long breaths would give way to short breaths as concentration deepened.

Yes, in my experience this is what happens.

... should I try and go for short, subtle breaths?

No. See below. There are traditions that play around with forcing the breath and varying the breath deliberately, but from what I have read they are not supported by sutta.
But, that said, Pa-Auk Sayadaw has his monks do deliberately vigorous breathing for long times, and he's very respected and has attainments.

...simply that both styles should be known when and if they occur?

Yes. The Satipatthana Sutta reference that MikeNZ gave is a really good illustration of this.

[marc108]

I would guess that "short" actually means "shallow" (not "short time") and, indeed, shallowness is what tends to happen as one becomes more concentrated, as you say.

this is my understanding as well. that its not long and short in length of time, but full or shallow, gross or subtle.

should I try and go for short, subtle breaths? Does the scheme of the anapanasati tetrads imply that one should move from long to short breaths or simply that both styles should be known when and if they occur?

Thanks!

in my interpretation, "he discerns(knows,notes)" of the first 2 steps implies a more passive observation, vs the latter "he trains" which implies more input. again my interpretation is that until the breath is very shallow and subtle you just observe the breath mindfully.

i have found purposeful long breathing at the beginning to be conducive of settling down and getting mindfulness up... it's actually quite effective, maybe 10 breaths or so. purposefully constricting the breath doesn't really work for me, because the body isn't quite ready to breath so shallow. it sends up feelings anxiety and restlessness, re: lack of air.