how do you enter jhana?

Discussion of Samatha bhavana and Jhana bhavana.

Re: how do you enter jhana?

Postby marc108 » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:30 pm

alan... wrote:
danieLion wrote::stirthepot:
...and how does one exit jhana?


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Re: how do you enter jhana?

Postby danieLion » Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:18 pm

Sylvester wrote:
danieLion wrote::stirthepot:
...and how does one exit jhana?


If you read DN 9 together with MN 44, that might suggest the answer...

So with this post plus Ben's the message I'm getting is that one exits jhana by way of proper prior planning and development? I'm also reading that it involves a present willing (volition) of a future unwilling (non-volition), i.e., when in jhana you don't do any willing but rely on your previously willed cultivation(s)?
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Re: how do you enter jhana?

Postby Ben » Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:46 am

Hi Daniel,
I think that maybe the case, as far as I can tell from my reading. - And I am by no means an authority on the issue.
My understanding is that the adhitthana decision seems to condition the duration of those jhana factors remaining stable.
kind regards,

Ben
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: how do you enter jhana?

Postby Sylvester » Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:37 am

Hi Daniel

That's how I think the suttas seem to describe it, based on the Pali.

Come to the Dark Side, and learn some Pali. You won't need to forego the better English translations. But learning some Pali grammar, especially conjugations if temporal issues interest you, will shed much light on how the English translations should be read, or would have been understood in the native format.

One example of this is to be found in MN 118 and the relation of the tetrads to jhana. If you look at the Pali, you will find that only the 1st tetrad admits of contemporaneity, owing to its use of the missakiriyā construction, versus the bhavissantī construction in the subsequent 3 tetrads. This difference has significant praxis consequences on how one practices ānāpānasati according to the MN 118 ideal.
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Re: how do you enter jhana?

Postby danieLion » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:04 am

Sylvester wrote:Hi Daniel

That's how I think the suttas seem to describe it, based on the Pali.

Come to the Dark Side, and learn some Pali....

I presume you mean beyond memorizing vocabulary? I've been doing that for a while. I've used some online tutorials for the grammar, but it's been a few months since I've done any assignments. I have a strong desire to read the suttas in Pali, and eventually do my own translating, so thanks for the motivational reminder.

I'm still a little shocked at how much interpretation is involved in translating Pali.
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Re: how do you enter jhana?

Postby danieLion » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:27 am

Sylvester wrote:One example of this is to be found in MN 118 and the relation of the tetrads to jhana. If you look at the Pali, you will find that only the 1st tetrad admits of contemporaneity, owing to its use of the missakiriyā construction, versus the bhavissantī construction in the subsequent 3 tetrads. This difference has significant praxis consequences on how one practices ānāpānasati according to the MN 118 ideal.

Sorry to keep bugging you, but could you give us a brief explanation of what the missakiriyā and bhavissantī constructions are. It's not evident to me from the Pali my search online yielded nil.
Thanks.
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Re: how do you enter jhana?

Postby Sylvester » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:38 am

Wait till ya get to the idioms.

Vocab while important is best not memorized IMHO. There's just too much polysemy in Pali to warrant memorization.

Missa = with present participles
Bhav = future tense.

Have you invested in Warder?
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Re: how do you enter jhana?

Postby danieLion » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:46 am

Sylvester wrote:Missa = with present participles
Bhav = future tense.

Ah, yes. I can see that in TB's and BB's translations. I've noticed it before, too, come to think of it. In terms of the contemporaneity (of the viharati [abides in jhana] and samanupassati [regards]), which one are you assigning to tetrad 1 and which to tetrads 2-4?
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Re: how do you enter jhana?

Postby Sylvester » Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:55 am

Look again...
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Re: how do you enter jhana?

Postby danieLion » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:24 am

Sylvester wrote:Look again...

:broke: I'm not even sure I'm asking the right questions anymore. :juggling:
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Re: how do you enter jhana?

Postby mirco » Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:38 pm

danieLion wrote:...and how does one exit jhana?

Haha. Nothing easier than that. It just happens. More often than you want it, if your unskilled.

If you are skilled, you before exactly can determine how long you want to stay in jhana.

Regards :-)
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Re: how do you enter jhana?

Postby rahul3bds » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:53 am

danieLion wrote::stirthepot:
...and how does one exit jhana?


Its like asking, how does one gets restless? Exiting is not the problem, entering and maintaining the jhana, is.
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