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natural progression of meditation? - Dhamma Wheel

natural progression of meditation?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
alan...
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natural progression of meditation?

Postby alan... » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:18 pm

i'm SO sick of all the conflict and confusion regarding jhana interpretation. i find that there is so much confusion that there will never be a 100% resolution without a time machine or until metteya shows up.

that being said, what happens if i just give up and watch my breath and do nothing else? and then after, or during, i practice vipassana? surely it's possible i will end up going through the jhanas naturally without really knowing it, or it's possible this is wrong concentration? i have no clue.

thoughts?

lojong1
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Postby lojong1 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:29 pm


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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:57 pm

How about you just follow the steps of anapanasati and see what happens? Watch the breath until piti arises and go from there.

You seem to be caught in the thicket of views. In reality, Jhana is readily accessible to those who spend more time just watching the breath and less time wondering where it will take them :smile:
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


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polarbear101
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Postby polarbear101 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:08 pm

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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polarbear101
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Postby polarbear101 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:13 pm

"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Cittasanto
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:01 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

lojong1
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Postby lojong1 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:35 pm


alan...
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Postby alan... » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:56 pm


alan...
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Postby alan... » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:58 pm


alan...
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Postby alan... » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:00 pm


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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:21 pm

Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: natural progression of meditation?

Postby alan... » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:31 pm


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LonesomeYogurt
Posts: 900
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Location: America

Re: natural progression of meditation?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:38 pm

Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: natural progression of meditation?

Postby alan... » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:50 pm


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Modus.Ponens
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:52 pm

IIRC, in Ajahn Brahm's method you attain the jhana factors, but he claims that they are not fully developed until you are in propfound absortion. I interpret this as meaning that the hard jhanas are nothing more than sutta jhanas with excessive concentration factor. It's a matter of degree. So what's most likely is that any method will lead you through the sutta jhanas first and then to the hard jhanas.
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

Samma
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Postby Samma » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:08 am

Sure, teachers say different things and its a problem.
What to do? Follow what seems to make sense, and start with vitakka & vicara.
Just begin,and its trial and error really. You don't want to end up with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis right?
Maybe read: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... mbers.html and have some more self-reliance.

I might recommend Richard Shankman's book though as it it gives some history to the issue, looking at samadhi in terms of sutta and commentaries, which is where a lot of the differences come from a clash between the two.
http://books.google.com/books?id=lQ_ZzF ... frontcover

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: natural progression of meditation?

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:25 am

Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta


alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: natural progression of meditation?

Postby alan... » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:32 am


alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: natural progression of meditation?

Postby alan... » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:43 am

Last edited by alan... on Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:48 am, edited 3 times in total.

alan...
Posts: 824
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:37 pm

Re: natural progression of meditation?

Postby alan... » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:45 am



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