Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

“But, Master Gotama, what is the celestial high and luxurious bed that at present you gain at will, without trouble or difficulty?”

“Here, brahmin, when I am dwelling in dependence on a village or town, in the morning I dress, take my bowl and robe, and enter that village or town for alms. After the meal, when I have returned from the alms round, I enter a grove. I collect some grass or leaves that I find there into a pile and then sit down. Having folded my legs crosswise and straightened my body, I establish mindfulness in front of me. Then, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, I enter and dwell in the first jhāna, which consists of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by thought and examination. With the subsiding of thought and examination, I enter and dwell in the second jhāna, which has internal placidity and unification of mind and consists of rapture and pleasure born of concentration, without thought and examination. With the fading away as well of rapture, I dwell equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, I experience pleasure with the body; I enter and dwell in the third jhāna of which the noble ones declare: ‘He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily.’ With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and dejection, I enter and dwell in the fourth jhāna, neither painful nor pleasant, which has purification of mindfulness by equanimity.

“When I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial. If I am standing, on that occasion my standing is celestial. If I am sitting, on that occasion my sitting is celestial. If I lie down, on that occasion this is my celestial high and luxurious bed. This is that celestial high and luxurious bed that at present I can gain at will, without trouble or difficulty.”

https://www.palicanon.org/index.php/sut ... at-chapter

so ce ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, evaṃbhūto caṅkamāmi, dibbo me eso tasmiṃ samaye caṅkamo hoti
"Mp says that his walking back and forth is celestial when, having entered the four jhānas, he walks back and forth; and his walking back and forth is celestial when, after emerging from the four jhānas, he walks back and forth. This seems to imply that walking can occur even with the mind in jhāna. This, however, is contradicted by the dominant understanding that jhāna is a state of uninterrupted absorption in an object, in which case intentional movements like walking would not be possible. Mp-ṭ explains the first case of Mp (walking after entering the jhānas) to mean that he walks back and forth immediately after emerging from the jhāna, while the second case (walking after emerging) to mean that he walks back and forth after having emerged some time earlier. The same explanation holds for the divine and the noble beds."

daverupa wrote:There seems to have been an early, and relatively thorough, exegetical reaction to this sort of thing.

so ce ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, evaṃbhūto caṅkamāmi, dibbo me eso tasmiṃ samaye caṅkamo hoti

so ce ahaṃ, brāhmaṇa, evaṃbhūtā caṅkamāmi, dibbo me eso tesu samayesu caṅkamo hoti

santa100 wrote:According to AN 9.31: "For one who has attained the fourth jhana, in-breathing and out-breathing have ceased" ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ). So, it's hard to imagine one's able to walk back and forth without any breathing. As a result, Comy's interpretation that the walking happening either immediately or some time after emerging from the 4th jhana kind of make sense in this case..

Sylvester wrote:Sometimes, the simplest answer is found in whether the inflection is in the plural or singular. That passage describes (i) establishment of mindfulness, and (ii) 4 jhanas. Since the Pali is in the singular, which of these 2 would the walking passage refer to?

• [2] "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns, 'I am walking.' When standing, he discerns, 'I am standing.' When sitting, he discerns, 'I am sitting.' When lying down, he discerns, 'I am lying down.' Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it.
  
  "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself.
  
  — Satipaṭṭhāna-sutta (MN 10)

mirco wrote:It's not only hard to imagine to walk back and forth without breathing,
it's ridiculous to imagine to stay alive without any breathing.
So, this has to be something else.
Why should breathing come to an end?
"catutthaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa assāsapassāsā niruddhā honti"

I think, it's perception that becomes to subtle to recognize breathing.

mirco wrote:

santa100 wrote:According to AN 9.31: "For one who has attained the fourth jhana, in-breathing and out-breathing have ceased" ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ). So, it's hard to imagine one's able to walk back and forth without any breathing. As a result, Comy's interpretation that the walking happening either immediately or some time after emerging from the 4th jhana kind of make sense in this case..

It's not only hard to imagine to walk back and forth without breathing,
it's ridiculous to imagine to stay alive without any breathing.
So, this has to be something else.
Why should breathing come to an end?
"catutthaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa assāsapassāsā niruddhā honti"

I think, it's perception that becomes to subtle to recognize breathing.