Is this a desire to experience the Jhanas?

Discussion of Samatha bhavana and Jhana bhavana.

Is this a desire to experience the Jhanas?

Postby lkearns » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:46 pm

Hello,

Thinking about the jhana states, I am aware that the levels of ones desire to experience a jhana state will effect ones chance at reaching the state; I understand this stated desire, as perhaps a desire for the bliss found in the jhana, desire for what is thought to be a 'sensual pleasure', right?

I feel as though I hold not a desire to experience the jhana, not a sense of craving for any physical pleasures at the thought of it; but when I think about how the jhana states are attainable for all, with right effort, I have a sense of motivation, or a sense of wonder that thinks like, "Where would that state take me?" or, "How would it change my perception?" (All in relation to the dhamma and the middle path).

I am curious as to whether this falls under desire, or is it purely wonder?
Is wonder desire?

Thanks :)
lkearns
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:57 pm

Re: Is this a desire to experience the Jhanas?

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:45 am

when I think about how the jhana states are attainable for all, with right effort


Interesting point. I have heard a monk say that one's kamma might mean that jhana is unobtainable. Is there any canonical support for this, and what do people think?
User avatar
Sam Vara
 
Posts: 1083
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: Is this a desire to experience the Jhanas?

Postby lkearns » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:00 am

Sam Vara wrote:
when I think about how the jhana states are attainable for all, with right effort


Interesting point. I have heard a monk say that one's kamma might mean that jhana is unobtainable. Is there any canonical support for this, and what do people think?


I feel like that case is true in a manner of 'can I, may I'; you CAN achieve jhana, although it would require digging yourself out of a big pile of bad kamma, which provides the MAY I variable... With right effort anyone can gain enlightenment in this lifetime right?

I suppose I was making that statement from a 'can I' standpoint.

good point you made :)
lkearns
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:57 pm

Re: Is this a desire to experience the Jhanas?

Postby daverupa » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:35 am

SN 48.10 wrote:And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana...


AN 8.28 wrote:"Furthermore, the five faculties are developed, well-developed by a monk whose effluents are ended...


Desiring to develop the five faculties, which is a wholesome goal, includes the desire to develop jhana.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4342
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Is this a desire to experience the Jhanas?

Postby kc2dpt » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:26 pm

lkearns wrote:Thinking about the jhana states, I am aware that the levels of ones desire to experience a jhana state will effect ones chance at reaching the state; I understand this stated desire, as perhaps a desire for the bliss found in the jhana, desire for what is thought to be a 'sensual pleasure', right?

I don't think jhana is taught to be a sensual pleasure.

"I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities." - MN 36
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
User avatar
kc2dpt
 
Posts: 956
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: Is this a desire to experience the Jhanas?

Postby lkearns » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:44 pm

kc2dpt wrote:
lkearns wrote:Thinking about the jhana states, I am aware that the levels of ones desire to experience a jhana state will effect ones chance at reaching the state; I understand this stated desire, as perhaps a desire for the bliss found in the jhana, desire for what is thought to be a 'sensual pleasure', right?

I don't think jhana is taught to be a sensual pleasure.

"I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities." - MN 36


Yeah, that figures, the jhanas relate to essentially being devoid of sensual pleasures? I put sensual pleasures in quotation because i was reffering to that some have the wrong view of jhana, believing it to be a state of physical bliss and a desire for that.
lkearns
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:57 pm

Re: Is this a desire to experience the Jhanas?

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:38 pm

lkearns wrote: I put sensual pleasures in quotation because i was reffering to that some have the wrong view of jhana, believing it to be a state of physical bliss and a desire for that.


I don't see what's wrong with a bit of piti, it can be very nourishing for practice.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
User avatar
Spiny Norman
 
Posts: 2905
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: Is this a desire to experience the Jhanas?

Postby daverupa » Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:10 pm

It's going to touch on jhana interpretations, but it pays to note that jhana is secluded from kama, so that sort of pleasure is simply not present in jhana; piti/sukha are indeed present, at first, but this is not to say that they are kama at that time. Parsing this difference is important to understanding jhana, I think, as well as understanding the route to it.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4342
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm


Return to Samatha Meditation and Jhana

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests