Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Hello,

Thinking about the jhana states, I am aware that the levels of ones desire to experience a jhana state will effect ones chance at reaching the state; I understand this stated desire, as perhaps a desire for the bliss found in the jhana, desire for what is thought to be a 'sensual pleasure', right?

I feel as though I hold not a desire to experience the jhana, not a sense of craving for any physical pleasures at the thought of it; but when I think about how the jhana states are attainable for all, with right effort, I have a sense of motivation, or a sense of wonder that thinks like, "Where would that state take me?" or, "How would it change my perception?" (All in relation to the dhamma and the middle path).

I am curious as to whether this falls under desire, or is it purely wonder?
Is wonder desire?

Thanks

when I think about how the jhana states are attainable for all, with right effort

Interesting point. I have heard a monk say that one's kamma might mean that jhana is unobtainable. Is there any canonical support for this, and what do people think?

Sam Vara wrote:

when I think about how the jhana states are attainable for all, with right effort

Interesting point. I have heard a monk say that one's kamma might mean that jhana is unobtainable. Is there any canonical support for this, and what do people think?

I feel like that case is true in a manner of 'can I, may I'; you CAN achieve jhana, although it would require digging yourself out of a big pile of bad kamma, which provides the MAY I variable... With right effort anyone can gain enlightenment in this lifetime right?

I suppose I was making that statement from a 'can I' standpoint.

good point you made

SN 48.10 wrote:And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana...

AN 8.28 wrote:"Furthermore, the five faculties are developed, well-developed by a monk whose effluents are ended...

Desiring to develop the five faculties, which is a wholesome goal, includes the desire to develop jhana.

lkearns wrote:Thinking about the jhana states, I am aware that the levels of ones desire to experience a jhana state will effect ones chance at reaching the state; I understand this stated desire, as perhaps a desire for the bliss found in the jhana, desire for what is thought to be a 'sensual pleasure', right?

I don't think jhana is taught to be a sensual pleasure.

"I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities." - MN 36

kc2dpt wrote:

lkearns wrote:Thinking about the jhana states, I am aware that the levels of ones desire to experience a jhana state will effect ones chance at reaching the state; I understand this stated desire, as perhaps a desire for the bliss found in the jhana, desire for what is thought to be a 'sensual pleasure', right?

I don't think jhana is taught to be a sensual pleasure.

"I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then, following on that memory, came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities." - MN 36

Yeah, that figures, the jhanas relate to essentially being devoid of sensual pleasures? I put sensual pleasures in quotation because i was reffering to that some have the wrong view of jhana, believing it to be a state of physical bliss and a desire for that.

lkearns wrote: I put sensual pleasures in quotation because i was reffering to that some have the wrong view of jhana, believing it to be a state of physical bliss and a desire for that.

I don't see what's wrong with a bit of piti, it can be very nourishing for practice.

It's going to touch on jhana interpretations, but it pays to note that jhana is secluded from kama, so that sort of pleasure is simply not present in jhana; piti/sukha are indeed present, at first, but this is not to say that they are kama at that time. Parsing this difference is important to understanding jhana, I think, as well as understanding the route to it.