Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6594
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: USA

Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by Mkoll »

Dear friends,
Another significant indication related to the nature of absorption can also be gathered from the Upakkilesa-sutta. According to its account, before his awakening the Buddha had to make quite an effort in order to overcome a whole series of obstructions until he was able to attain the first absorption (MN III 157). This suggests the first absorption to be a state of mind reached only after prolonged practice and requiring considerable meditative expertise.

This impression is confirmed by turning to the cases of Anuruddha and Mahāmoggallāna. In the case of each of these two chief disciples the personal intervention of the Buddha was required for them to be able to attain and stabilize the first absorption (MN III 157 and SN IV 263). If Anuruddha and Mahāmoggallāna, who later on were reckoned as outstanding among the Buddha’s disciples for their concentrative abilities (AN I 23), had such difficulties, then it can safely be concluded that the first absorption stands for a level of concentration that requires considerable meditative training.

Elsewhere the discourses in fact indicate that during the first absorption it is impossible to speak (SN IV 217), and the hearing of sounds is an obstruction to its attainment (AN V 135). With the first absorption one has gone beyond Māra’s vision (MN I 159), having reached the end of the world of the senses (AN IV 430). These passages confirm that the first absorption is indeed a state during which the mind is “absorbed” in deep concentration.
-From Ven. Anālayo's Excursions into the Thought-World of the Pāli Discourses, page 244-245, Pariyatti: 2012

Highly recommended book.

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
User avatar
manas
Posts: 2678
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Re:

Post by manas »

I'd like to see this clarified. I think that it's not the fact that we want to attain jhana that hinders us from attaining it. I think the problem is that, if you are focusing on the breath, with the anticipation in the back of your mind of geting to 1st jhana, you are not totaly focused on the breath. It is probably a form of restlessness, but I think this distinction, if true, must be made. It's not desiring jhana that prevents you from attaining it. It's a more a result of a defective focus, due to the antecipation of jhana, due to not being focused with your whole mind on the object.

This is a subtle difference, but it explains the (apparent) contradiction that to get to jhana you have to not desire it.
Hi Modus,
this written on phone, so briefly: what you said, that's what I was getting at. We agree.
:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
User avatar
Sati1
Posts: 321
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:54 am

Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by Sati1 »

Hi Sarah,
SarathW wrote:Hi Satti
Please to see that you are a dedicated meditator.
I am not sure whether I ever experienced rapture. (because I do not have a teacher)
Could you explain how it feel like.
Anyone else in this forum can answer my question if you have personally experience it.
:)
Rapture is a pleasure that pervades the whole body and feels like a real physical pleasure, like some sort of extremely pleasant tingling inside the body. For me it came spontaneously early on, but then It stopped for several months because I was trying to get it. That was very frustrating. Even when I discovered the trying to be the cause of the cessation, I found it very hard to stop trying. It got harder to let go of the desire the more I read about jhanas and wished the rapture back. Eventually I realized that the true benefit of meditation is not the rapture one can attain, but the ability to see things clearly during the day and release the vast amount of concepts, urges, cravings, etc that burden us. That realization was a huge relief. As far as I understand, several meditation masters such as Thich Nhat Hanh and Ven. Vimalarasi argue that jhanas aren't even necessary for liberation, at least at the early stages. My advice would be not to bother with trying to feel anything during meditation, but just to cultivate mindfulness of breathing.
manas wrote: I'd like to see this clarified. I think that it's not the fact that we want to attain jhana that hinders us from attaining it. I think the problem is that, if you are focusing on the breath, with the anticipation in the back of your mind of geting to 1st jhana, you are not totaly focused on the breath. It is probably a form of restlessness, but I think this distinction, if true, must be made. It's not desiring jhana that prevents you from attaining it. It's a more a result of a defective focus, due to the antecipation of jhana, due to not being focused with your whole mind on the object.

This is a subtle difference, but it explains the (apparent) contradiction that to get to jhana you have to not desire it.

I would agree with manas that there is a way to strive for jhanas without craving them, but that the distinction is subtle and hard to navigate. It's the distinction between Right Effort and Craving.
Sati1

----
"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.30, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
User avatar
Modus.Ponens
Posts: 3853
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Location: Gallifrey

Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Satti1 wrote: Rapture is a pleasure that pervades the whole body and feels like a real physical pleasure, like some sort of extremely pleasant tingling inside the body.
I tried to describe it yesterday but I couldn't. For me, it's true that it's pleasurable. But it's not heavy, like sensual pleasures. SarathW, if you have experienced the deep peace that comes with a good sitting practice, you can imagine piti like a pleasurable, joyful sensation that is as refined and light as that peace. It's tingly and it feels like a burst of energy. I can't describe it better. Can someone add to this?
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10171
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by Spiny Norman »

seeker242 wrote: Or, you could say that Jhana pleasure has the potential to lead to "higher state" or "closer to enlightenment" or whatever you want to call it. Whereas sensual pleasure has no potential for that at all.
:goodpost:
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10171
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Modus.Ponens wrote:...you can imagine piti like a pleasurable, joyful sensation that is as refined and light as that peace. It's tingly and it feels like a burst of energy. I can't describe it better. Can someone add to this?
I've experienced it like a mild electric shock which persists pleasantly.
( I used to be an electrician ;) )
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
manas
Posts: 2678
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by manas »

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Satti1 wrote: Rapture is a pleasure that pervades the whole body and feels like a real physical pleasure, like some sort of extremely pleasant tingling inside the body.
I tried to describe it yesterday but I couldn't. For me, it's true that it's pleasurable. But it's not heavy, like sensual pleasures. SarathW, if you have experienced the deep peace that comes with a good sitting practice, you can imagine piti like a pleasurable, joyful sensation that is as refined and light as that peace. It's tingly and it feels like a burst of energy. I can't describe it better. Can someone add to this?
From what I have read over my time here, piti is not experienced in the same way by all practitioners. I can recall a commentarial passage talking about the burst of energy as an early manifestation, when the meditator has not as yet learnt to stabilize it. I can relate to that. I will just say that, I suspect we need to be more detached, that is the case with me anyway. After all, jhana is not the be-all-and-end-all, it's a pleasant abiding etc, and even the Buddha described it as such, but really we want it for the cessation of all ill, not merely as a pleasant abiding, so I think we need to 'remain calm and don't get too excited' :meditate: , if you know what I mean. For me at this stage, it's kind of a happy mental / emotional feeling, but in this body. Now that is unusual in my life experience, and yes it's not like sensual pleasure...

So, like learning a musical instrument, practice, practice, practice! And, as much virtue, mindfulness in daily life, and 'turning away' from sensuality as possible as well, will help with this endeavour, I think.

I'm glad we are all able to have a discussion about this.

metta,
manas.
:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
User avatar
Modus.Ponens
Posts: 3853
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Location: Gallifrey

Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:...you can imagine piti like a pleasurable, joyful sensation that is as refined and light as that peace. It's tingly and it feels like a burst of energy. I can't describe it better. Can someone add to this?
I've experienced it like a mild electric shock which persists pleasantly.
( I used to be an electrician ;) )
That's a good aditional description. It describes the thingling part.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2712
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by Zom »

Subj. answer: Because jhana pleasure is a pleasure of abandoning sensual pleasures:

1st jhana formula:
"..quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from (this) seclusion..."
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10171
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Zom wrote: 1st jhana formula:
"..quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from (this) seclusion..."
Yes, good point.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6594
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: USA

Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by Mkoll »

Also see the below excerpt from MN 14. Even the Bodhisatta himself saw that he could be tempted by sensuality when he hadn't yet attained jhana.
"Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, still — if he has not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that[4] — he can be tempted by sensuality. But when he has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and he has attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, he cannot be tempted by sensuality.

"I myself, before my Awakening, when I was still an unawakened bodhisatta, saw as it actually was with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, but as long as I had not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, I did not claim that I could not be tempted by sensuality. But when I saw as it actually was with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, and I had attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that, that was when I claimed that I could not be tempted by sensuality.
:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
User avatar
manas
Posts: 2678
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by manas »

So maybe jhana isn't about 'getting' anything, but rather, about casting off burdens...temporarily letting go of a heap of trouble.
I just wish to clarify what I wrote here. That is one useful strategy, for how to not get too hung up on trying to 'get' piti etc; but cultivation of jhana is not *just* about letting go, there is also much to do, one has to fabricate alot of wholesome intention, in my experience, to counter the hindrances, not merely 'let go'. I see the process as requiring quite a bit of positive energy, it's not merely a passive process, although as the mind settles down, one can begin to let go a little more, I've found.

:anjali:
Last edited by manas on Wed Jan 01, 2014 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by daverupa »

manas wrote:So maybe jhana isn't about 'getting' anything, but rather, about casting off burdens...temporarily letting go of a heap of trouble.
SN 48.10 wrote:"And what is the faculty of concentration? There is the case where a monk, a disciple of the noble ones, making it his object to let go, attains concentration, attains singleness of mind. Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19943
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Dave,

There seems to be some disagreement on how to translate that sentence.
Ānandajoti Bhikkhu wrote:Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako, vossaggārammaṇaṁ karitvā, labhati samādhiṁ,
Here, monks, a noble disciple, having relinquished sense objects, attains concentration,
http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... suttam.htm
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:Here, bhikkhus, the noble disciple gains concentration, gains one-pointedness of mind, having made release the object.
:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6594
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: USA

Re: Why are jhanas considered superior to sensual pleasures?

Post by Mkoll »

Dear friends,

Here's another excerpt from Ven. Anālayo's book about letting go (vossagga). It's the subject of a whole, albeit small, chapter in his book.
In relation to the development of concentration, to let go would stand for letting go of concern with the world of the senses, first of all, and eventually also for letting go of the subjective sense of 'I'. Only once this sense of 'I' goes into abeyance, allowing for a subjective experience of a merger between observing subject and observed meditative object, will entry into absorption become possible. Preconditions for developing such letting go into deep meditative absorption are faith, energy, and mindfulness (SN V 225)
:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Post Reply