What does this sentence in the visuddhimagga refer to?

Discussion of Samatha bhavana and Jhana bhavana.

What does this sentence in the visuddhimagga refer to?

Postby EmptyCittas1by1 » Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:56 am

As to apprehending: here the exposition should be understood according to the seen, the touched and the heard. Herein, these nineteen, that is to say, nine kasinas omitting the air kasina and the ten kinds of foulness, must be apprehended by the seen. The meaning is that in the early stage their sign must be apprehended by constantly looking with the eye. In the case of mindfulness occupied with the body the five parts ending with skin must be apprehended by the seen and the rest by the heard, so its object must be apprehended by the seen and the heard. Mindfulness of breathing must be apprehended by the touched; the air kasióa by the seen and the touched; the remaining eighteen by the heard. The divine abiding of equanimity and the four immaterial states are not apprehendable by a beginner; but the remaining thirty-five are. This is “as to apprehending.”


I thought it would be referring to the fingertips, but why must those be seen, and how are they heard? Maybe the limbs? But there are only 4 of those. The 5 sense doors? Not all end in skin, you cannot hear the body, eyes, ears, tongue, and nose, nor can you see all of them. I don't see (heh) how one can hear the body hairs or the intestines or the muscles or the bones. Somebody please enlighten me :shrug:
"Eat little! Sleep little! Speak little! Whatever it may be of worldly habit, lessen them, go against their power. Don't just do as you like, don't indulge in your thought. Stop this slavish following. You must constantly go against the stream of ignorance. This is called "Discipline." When you discipline your heart, it becomes very dissatisfied and begins to struggle. It becomes restricted and oppressed. When the heart is prevented from doing what it wants to do, it starts wandering and struggling. Suffering becomes apparent to us."

— Ajahn Chah
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Re: What does this sentence in the visuddhimagga refer to?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:28 am

Hi EmptyCittas1by1,

It took me a while to find this passage. For reference, it's III.119, page 109 of the BPS PDF version: http://www.bps.lk/library_books.php

I think it's referring to the body parts as in VIII.44 (p 237):
In this body there are head hairs, body hairs,
nails, teeth, skin
, flesh, sinews, bones, bone marrow, kidney, heart, liver, midriff,
spleen, lungs, bowels, entrails, gorge, dung, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat,
tears, grease, spittle, snot, oil of the joints, and urine.

These are the parts of the body that can be seen. However, I'm not sure why the others are "heard".

Perhaps someone else can elucidate?

:anjali:
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Re: What does this sentence in the visuddhimagga refer to?

Postby Mkoll » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:00 am

Dear friends,

I think by "heard" he means recitation both verbally and mentally. I remember the instructions in the Vism. for the parts of the body meditation begins with verbal recitation.

:anjali:
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Re: What does this sentence in the visuddhimagga refer to?

Postby santa100 » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:19 am

As mikenz66 and Mkoll pointed out, the mindfulness occupied with the body means the 32 body parts which are grouped into: the skin pentad, kidney pentad, lung pentad, brain pentad, fat sestad, and urine sestad. Verbal and mental recitation are parts of the Sevenfold Skill in Learning. Further info. on the pentads and the recitation can be found on the Mindfulness Occupied with the Body section, Vism VIII.48 page 238 ~~ http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... on2011.pdf ~~
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Re: What does this sentence in the visuddhimagga refer to?

Postby EmptyCittas1by1 » Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:50 am

Mkoll wrote:Dear friends,

I think by "heard" he means recitation both verbally and mentally. I remember the instructions in the Vism. for the parts of the body meditation begins with verbal recitation.

:anjali:


Did it say so in that chapter? If so, where? I'm not there yet. :reading:

Edit: some help with this passage would be nice also (Chapter IV, pg 131):

So, while he is guiding his mind in this way, confronting the sign, [then knowing]: “Now absorption will succeed,” there arises in him mind-door adverting with that same earth kasióa as its object, interrupting the [occurrence of consciousness as] life-continuum, and evoked by the constant repeating of “earth, earth.” After that, either four or five impulsions impel on that same object, the last one of which is an impulsion of the fine-material sphere. The rest are of the sense sphere, but they have stronger applied thought, sustained thought, happiness, bliss, and unification of mind than the normal ones. They are called “preliminary work” [consciousnesses] because they are the preliminary work for absorption; [138] and they are also called “access” [consciousnesses] because of their nearness to absorption because they happen in its neighbourhood, just as the words “village access” and “city access” are used for a place near to a village, etc.; and they are also called “conformity” [consciousnesses] because they conform to those that precede the “preliminary work” [consciousnesses] and to the absorption that follows. And the last of these is also called “change- of-lineage” because it transcends the limited [sense-sphere] lineage and brings into being the exalted [fine-material-sphere] lineage.


By impulsions, does he mean the repetitions of "earth, earth"? I assume "impulsions" refers to the jhavana cittas, which I believe are responsible for action, including speech. That's why I think he refers to the repetitions. Is this correct?
"Eat little! Sleep little! Speak little! Whatever it may be of worldly habit, lessen them, go against their power. Don't just do as you like, don't indulge in your thought. Stop this slavish following. You must constantly go against the stream of ignorance. This is called "Discipline." When you discipline your heart, it becomes very dissatisfied and begins to struggle. It becomes restricted and oppressed. When the heart is prevented from doing what it wants to do, it starts wandering and struggling. Suffering becomes apparent to us."

— Ajahn Chah
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Re: What does this sentence in the visuddhimagga refer to?

Postby santa100 » Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:57 am

EmptyCittas1by1 wrote: By impulsions, does he mean the repetitions of "earth, earth"? I assume "impulsions" refers to the jhavana cittas, which I believe are responsible for action, including speech. That's why I think he refers to the repetitions. Is this correct?

Note that the 4 impulsions(javana) happen after the repetitions of "earth, earth". Those 4 javanas of preliminary, access, conformity, and change-of-lineage are further explained in the next paragraph at Vism IV.75 page 132. For your previous question, please refer to Vism VIII.48 page 238 as shown in my previous post.
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Re: What does this sentence in the visuddhimagga refer to?

Postby EmptyCittas1by1 » Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:06 am

santa100 wrote:
EmptyCittas1by1 wrote: By impulsions, does he mean the repetitions of "earth, earth"? I assume "impulsions" refers to the jhavana cittas, which I believe are responsible for action, including speech. That's why I think he refers to the repetitions. Is this correct?

Note that the 4 impulsions(javana) happen after the repetitions of "earth, earth". Those 4 javanas of preliminary, access, conformity, and change-of-lineage are further explained in the next paragraph at Vism IV.75 page 132. For your previous question, please refer to Vism VIII.48 page 238 as shown in my previous post.


Thanks for the clarification and the page number. :thanks:

To those who want to see what it says:

Herein, the sevenfold skill in learning should be told thus: (1) as verbal recitation, (2) as mental recitation, (3) as to colour, (4) as to shape, (5) as to direction, (6) as to location, (7) as to delimitation.
49. 1. This meditation subject consists in giving attention to repulsiveness. Even if one is master of the Tipiþaka, the verbal recitation should still be done at the time of first giving it attention. For the meditation subject only becomes evident to some through recitation, as it did to the two elders who learned the meditation subject from the Elder Mahá Deva of the Hill Country (Malaya). On being asked for the meditation subject, it seems, the elder [242] gave the text of the thirty-two aspects, saying, “Do only this recitation for four months.” Although they were familiar respectively with two and three Piþakas, it was only at the end of four months of recitation of the meditation subject that they became stream-enterers, with right apprehension [of the text]. So the teacher who expounds the meditation subject should tell the pupil to do the recitation verbally first.
50. Now, when he does the recitation, he should divide it up into the “skin pentad,” etc., and do it forwards and backwards. After saying “Head hairs, body hairs, nails, teeth, skin,” he should repeat it backwards, “Skin, teeth, nails, body hairs, head hairs.”
51. Next to that, with the “kidney pentad,” after saying “Flesh, sinews, bones, bone marrow, kidney,” he should repeat it backwards, “Kidney, bone marrow, bones, sinews, flesh; skin, teeth, nails, body hairs, head hairs.”
52. Next, with the “lungs pentad,” after saying “Heart, liver, midriff, spleen, lungs,” he should repeat it backwards, “Lungs, spleen, midriff, liver, heart; kidney, bone marrow, bones, sinews, flesh; skin, teeth, nails, body hairs, head hairs.”
53. Next, with the “brain pentad,” after saying “Bowels, entrails, gorge, dung, brain,” he should repeat it backwards, “Brain, dung, gorge, entrails, bowels; lungs, spleen, midriff, liver, heart; kidney, bone marrow, bones, sinews, flesh; skin, teeth, nails, body hairs, head hairs.”
54. Next, with the “fat sextad,” after saying “Bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat,” he should repeat it backwards, “Fat, sweat, blood, pus, phlegm, bile; brain, dung, gorge, entrails, bowels; lungs, spleen, midriff, liver, heart; kidney, bone marrow, bones, sinews, flesh; skin, teeth, nails, body hairs, head hairs.”
55. Next, with the “urine sextad,” after saying “Tears, grease, spittle, snot, oil of the joints, urine,” he should repeat it backwards, “Urine, oil of the joints, snot, spittle, grease, tears; fat, sweat, blood, pus, phlegm, bile; brain, dung, gorge, entrails, bowels; lungs, spleen, midriff, liver, heart; kidney, bone marrow, bones, sinews, flesh; skin, teeth, nails, body hairs, head hairs.” [243]
56. The recitation should be done verbally in this way a hundred times, a thousand times, even a hundred thousand times. For it is through verbal recitation that the meditation subject becomes familiar, and the mind being thus prevented from running here and there, the parts become evident and seem like [the fingers of] a pair of clasped hands, like a row of fence posts.
57. 2. The mental recitation should be done just as it is done verbally. For the verbal recitation is a condition for the mental recitation, and the mental recitation is a condition for the penetration of the characteristic [of foulness].
58. 3. As to colour: the colour of the head hairs, etc., should be defined.
4. As to shape: their shape should be defined too.
5. As to direction: in this body, upwards from the navel is the upward direction, and downwards from it is the downward direction. So the direction should be defined thus: “This part is in this direction.”
6. As to location: the location of this or that part should be defined thus: “This part is established in this location.”
59. 7. As to delimitation: there are two kinds of delimitation, that is, delimitation of the similar and delimitation of the dissimilar. Herein, delimitation of the similar should be understood in this way: “This part is delimited above and below and around by this.” Delimitation of the dissimilar should be understood as non-intermixed-ness in this way: “Head hairs are not body hairs, and body hairs are not head hairs.”
60. When the teacher tells the skill in learning in seven ways thus, he should do so knowing that in certain suttas this meditation subject is expounded from the point of view of repulsiveness and in certain suttas from the point of view of elements. For in the Mahá Satipaþþhána Sutta (DN 22) it is expounded only as repulsiveness. In the Mahá Hatthipadopama Sutta (MN 28), in the Mahá Ráhulováda Sutta (MN 62), and the Dhátuvibhaòga (MN 140, also Vibh 82), it is expounded as elements. In the Káyagatásati Sutta (MN 119), however, four jhánas are expounded with reference to one to whom it has appeared as a colour [kasióa] (see III.107). Herein, it is an insight meditation subject that is expounded as elements and a serenity meditation subject that is expounded as repulsiveness. Consequently it is only the serenity meditation subject [that is relevant] here.
"Eat little! Sleep little! Speak little! Whatever it may be of worldly habit, lessen them, go against their power. Don't just do as you like, don't indulge in your thought. Stop this slavish following. You must constantly go against the stream of ignorance. This is called "Discipline." When you discipline your heart, it becomes very dissatisfied and begins to struggle. It becomes restricted and oppressed. When the heart is prevented from doing what it wants to do, it starts wandering and struggling. Suffering becomes apparent to us."

— Ajahn Chah
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