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Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditation

Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:53 pm
by Sati1
Hello,

Recently, three strange and distracting things started to happen as I go deeper into meditation: my head slowly drops forward, I start to drool (slobber), and, as saliva builds up in the mouth, a strong urge to swallow arises. All three events are irrelevant at the beginning, but become somewhat of a distraction when they intensify: I lift my head back to straight posture in order not to hurt my neck, I feel the dripping of saliva on my shirt, and I swallow. Throughout the process I am well concentrated and fully aware of what is happening.

Has anybody had similar experiences, and do you have suggestions on what to do about this?

Many thanks for your help,

Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:55 pm
by Kim OHara
As soon as your head goes forwards, any saliva in your mouth runs towards the front of your mouth instead of automatically being cleared down your throat, and if you don't get rid of it by swallowing it will dribble over your bottom lip. That's basic physiology and physics, and its true whether you're dozing in front of the TV or meditating. In the interests of full disclosure, I will admit it happens to me when I get drowsy in meditation. :tongue:
The only solution, afaik, is maintaining better posture. Altering the way you sit (hips a bit higher?) may help. Maintaining a bit more body awareness during your meditation could be good, at least until better posture is as automatic as breathing.

:namaste:
Kim

Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:57 pm
by santa100
try to keep the mouth closed and place your tongue on the roof of the mouth and see if it helps preventing the drooling. Keeping your back straight all the time would help preventing the head from dropping forward..

Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:10 pm
by Kenshou
I definitely deal with too much saliva/annoying need to swallow as well. I seem to simply generate a lot of the stuff. So I can give you a couple suggestions.

First, which relates to head-drooping, watch your posture. Not letting your posture slump forward will better prevent saliva pooling in your mouth, and keeping upright is generally beneficial to maintaining energy and mindfulness anyway.

Try different tongue positions, or consider what you are doing with your tongue if you aren't doing anything specific. You might be doing something that makes it easier for stuff to gather and sit there in your mouth.

Finally, observing the reflex to swallow can be a perfectly good object of contemplation. The feeling of a spitty mouth causes irritance, which leads to swallowing, and then the relief from that irritance. But, if the sensation is observed impartially, the annoyance will not arise. A tiny lesson on the origination of suffering.

Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:40 pm
by Mkoll
I can relate to the saliva building up. But it can be kept at the back of the throat as long as the back, neck, and head are straight enough in my experience. The sensation is awkward but I've never found it painful. Eventually the sensation becomes less bothersome if it isn't attended to with craving. It's a good way to see how suffering and craving in works for such a mundane thing.

Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:14 pm
by SarathW
Sati1 wrote:Hello,

Recently, three strange and distracting things started to happen as I go deeper into meditation: my head slowly drops forward, I start to drool (slobber), and, as saliva builds up in the mouth, a strong urge to swallow arises. All three events are irrelevant at the beginning, but become somewhat of a distraction when they intensify: I lift my head back to straight posture in order not to hurt my neck, I feel the dripping of saliva on my shirt, and I swallow. Throughout the process I am well concentrated and fully aware of what is happening.

Has anybody had similar experiences, and do you have suggestions on what to do about this?

Many thanks for your help,
Keep your eyes slightly open and look say one meter ahead of your sitting position.
When I meditate I start keeping my eyes wide open and gradually it comes to closed position.

:o
It is more interesting when you experience Jhana with your eyes open!
:)

Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:38 am
by Sati1
Hello,

Thank you all for the answers. It is reassuring to hear the srrong consensus about maintaining posture. I will work on that and also test maintaining the tongue towards the roof of the mouth and treating the arising of the "spit nuissance" as an object of contemplation. I actually tried that contemplation a while ago and found it interesting to notice how the urge to swallow intensifies to the extreme ("you must swallow now!") even though rationally I knew that nothing dangerous would happen if I did not swallow. With enough practice it should be possible to watch it long enough for it to arise and subside without swallowing. A good lesson in nonself, for sure!

Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:09 am
by Kumara
Sati1 wrote:Recently, three strange and distracting things started to happen as I go deeper into meditation: my head slowly drops forward, I start to drool (slobber), and, as saliva builds up in the mouth, a strong urge to swallow arises. All three events are irrelevant at the beginning, but become somewhat of a distraction when they intensify: I lift my head back to straight posture in order not to hurt my neck, I feel the dripping of saliva on my shirt, and I swallow. Throughout the process I am well concentrated and fully aware of what is happening.

Has anybody had similar experiences, and do you have suggestions on what to do about this?
Yes, I have (minus the head drooping). I wondered about it too. Then I got a better understanding when I practiced with Sayadaw U Tejaniya. It's because we were tensed (esp at the head) before that, then when we relax, salivation happens. It can happen when we sleep too.

Just go ahead and swallow. What's wrong with swallowing anyway? I don't see anything in the Buddha's teaching saying one is not to swallow saliva. It's good to notice the impulse and reason for swallowing though. Then our awareness is greater.

Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:44 am
by Sati1
Hi Kumara,

I think swallowing might be ok if it's done with total mindfulness. In the first jhana this is still ok, but I wonder whether one could also swallow in the higher jhanas.

Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:58 am
by Kumara
Sati1 wrote:I think swallowing might be ok if it's done with total mindfulness. In the first jhana this is still ok, but I wonder whether one could also swallow in the higher jhanas.
By then, the over-salivation wouldn't be happening.

Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:34 am
by TheNoBSBuddhist
Sati1 wrote:Hello,

Recently, three strange and distracting things started to happen as I go deeper into meditation: my head slowly drops forward, I start to drool (slobber), and, as saliva builds up in the mouth, a strong urge to swallow arises. All three events are irrelevant at the beginning, but become somewhat of a distraction when they intensify: I lift my head back to straight posture in order not to hurt my neck, I feel the dripping of saliva on my shirt, and I swallow. Throughout the process I am well concentrated and fully aware of what is happening.

Has anybody had similar experiences, and do you have suggestions on what to do about this?

Many thanks for your help,
You're falling asleep.
Wear one of these - I guarantee it will stop happening.

And no, I am not joking.
A Zen Monk leading regular meditation practice in a Temple I once attended, recommended it as a viable aid to promote Mindful practice.

No kidding intended at all.

Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:42 am
by Kumara
TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:You're falling asleep.
Ahh... That explains it.

I wondered why I didn't think of it. Then I realise I haven't had that kind of sleepiness during sitting for a long time. I also don't notice this among my students. I believe it's mainly because they don't close the eyes while still trying to be aware of themselves. (Notice that the Suttas say sit upright, but not close the eyes?)
TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:Wear one of these - I guarantee it will stop happening.
Yikes!

Opening the eyes is safer and free.

Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:23 pm
by daverupa
Kumara wrote:(Notice that the Suttas say sit upright, but not close the eyes?)
Maybe, using the large third robe as a mosquito/bug screen, they had open eyes but were mostly staring gently, perhaps with half-lidded eyes, at a muted yellow field of vision. Sort of like sitting awake in a tent.

Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:04 pm
by Sati1
Dear TheNoBSBuddhist,

I am sure that I am not falling asleep, as I can clearly review the five hindrances and detect no sloth and torpor whatsoever. My awareness is bright and I remain well-focused on the breath throughout. think it's more a state of extreme relaxation of the muscles than any dozzing-off or falling asleep.

Metta,

Re: Dropping head, drooling and swallowing reflex in meditat

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:08 am
by Kumara
daverupa wrote:
Kumara wrote:(Notice that the Suttas say sit upright, but not close the eyes?)
Maybe, using the large third robe as a mosquito/bug screen, they had open eyes but were mostly staring gently, perhaps with half-lidded eyes, at a muted yellow field of vision. Sort of like sitting awake in a tent.
Don't know if any monk who does that. It'll be pretty warm in a tropical climate. Besides, you may have come across suttas that mentions the sanghati being folded and laid on the ground to be sat on.

Besides, if shutting or muting the eyes is the way to go, how is one to understand the eye, the (visual) form, the eye-consciousness, the eye-contact, the fetters connected with the eye, the gratification, the danger, the escape, etc.? Is the common idea of meditation aligned with what the Buddha taught?

"Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the eye, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering." (SN35.111)