nirvana through jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
shazan
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nirvana through jhana?

Post by shazan »

hi,

is it posible to attain nirvana by shamata/jhana meditations only, without doing vipassana?

Thanks
thepea
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Re: nirvana through jhana?

Post by thepea »

What does doing Vipassana mean?
shazan
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Re: nirvana through jhana?

Post by shazan »

analytical/contemplative meditation. you have to analyse something rather than just being aware and deepening that awareness.
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tiltbillings
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Re: nirvana through jhana?

Post by tiltbillings »

shazan wrote:analytical/contemplative meditation. you have to analyse something rather than just being aware and deepening that awareness.
Are you sure of that?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
shazan
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Re: nirvana through jhana?

Post by shazan »

Not exactly. Since analysis has an inherent awareness part of it, one cant analyze a thing if he isn't aware of and focused upon it. But on the other hand one can be focused upon a thing without analyzing it. So there is a bit of Shamata in Vipassana, but not vice versa.
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Re: nirvana through jhana?

Post by daverupa »

shazan wrote:So there is a bit of Shamata in Vipassana, but not vice versa.
This is like saying that, when washing hands, the right hand washes the left but the left hand doesn't wash the right.

In fact both hands wash each other, and so it is with samatha-vipassana. In fact they are a swift pair of messengers, not a set of messengers that are sometimes together, and sometimes just the one.

Just a thought: consider bhavana to be the overall act, and when parsing the presence (vinnana) of this act you can discuss the vipassana (sanna) or the samatha (vedana) - but these are properly understood as conjoined.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: nirvana through jhana?

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atipattoh
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Re: nirvana through jhana?

Post by atipattoh »

I heard once at a dhamma talk by a Sayadaw that a pure samatha meditator can EXIT from Jhanna and immediately discern the nature of annica, dukkha and anatta of the breath it self.
imo, discerning is a process of vipasana practice.
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Re: nirvana through jhana?

Post by pegembara »

"If anyone were to say, 'The intellect is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable. The arising & falling away of the intellect are discerned. And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'The intellect is the self.'.....

"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with the eye, disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with consciousness at the eye, disenchanted with contact at the eye, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with craving. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

The key point is that special type of observation of the sense experience(sankhara) that brings direct understanding of dependent origination. Without such an examination there is no release.
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Re: nirvana through jhana?

Post by Spiny Norman »

daverupa wrote:In fact both hands wash each other, and so it is with samatha-vipassana. In fact they are a swift pair of messengers, not a set of messengers that are sometimes together, and sometimes just the one.
I think they are 2 sides of the same coin. Calm and insight, stillness and clarity.
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pegembara
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Re: nirvana through jhana?

Post by pegembara »

"These are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

(1) "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is the development of concentration that... leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now.

(2) "And what is the development of concentration that... leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision.

(3) "And what is the development of concentration that... leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.

(4) "And what is the development of concentration that... leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents.

"These are the four developments of concentration."

— AN 4.41
It is only the 4th development that leads to nibbana.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
SarathW
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Re: nirvana through jhana?

Post by SarathW »

Can someone clarify this?

(2) "And what is the development of concentration that... leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision.
==========
What does it mean to say "Night is the same as day"?
Can he sees in dark?
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Spiny Norman
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Re: nirvana through jhana?

Post by Spiny Norman »

atipattoh wrote:I heard once at a dhamma talk by a Sayadaw that a pure samatha meditator can EXIT from Jhanna and immediately discern the nature of annica, dukkha and anatta of the breath it self.
I think that's one way of looking at the 4 tetrads of anapanasati. I find the description "pure samatha meditator" a little puzzling, since samatha and vipassana are paired qualities, not methods.
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tsurezuregusa
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Re: nirvana through jhana?

Post by tsurezuregusa »

Hi,
Spiny Norman wrote:since samatha and vipassana are paired qualities
I don’t think this is necessarily true. To my understanding there is no bidirectional causation between samatha and vipassana.

By this I mean: if there is vipassana there is samatha. But this does not work the other direction. When there is samatha there is not necessarily vipassana.

If there would be a bidirectional causation, for non-Buddhist meditation this would mean one of two things. (1) Through their meditation they are not able to cultivate samatha or (2) they develop both samatha and vipassana and thereby reach nibbana just fine. Therefore no need for the Buddha’s path.

I do not believe this to be true. Buddha’s meditation teachers were developing samatha to a high degree and so are Christian, Hindu etc. yogis all over. But their samatha is not paired with vipassana, because they are not practicing samma sati and therefore do not develop samma samadhi which is paired with vipassana. Their samadhi is purely samatha samadhi.

Kind regards,
Florian
shazan
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Re: nirvana through jhana?

Post by shazan »

Well the main reason for the question was that I read some where that there are two approaches to nirvana. One is what is termed wet approach, where one develops good command over jhanas, and then starts doing vipassana. The other one is the dry approach where after developing access concentration one directly goes on to vipassana. This made me think, what if one does only jhana meditations to the 4th, or 8th. Does one attain nirvana through that path?

In my very basic experiences with sustained concentration, and trying to go around every day life in that state of mind, where mind is totally quiet and I just cognize/realize reality rather that conceptualizing or emotionalizing it, I have seen that many realizations come naturally, without trying to "sit and meditate" upon them. Many confusions, pains, baggages and attachments fall off naturally.

On the second thought, may be I am doing vipassana without "sitting for" it.
Last edited by shazan on Wed Jul 23, 2014 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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