nirvana through jhana?

Discussion of Samatha bhavana and Jhana bhavana.

Re: nirvana through jhana?

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:51 am

tsurezuregusa wrote:Hi,

Spiny Norman wrote:since samatha and vipassana are paired qualities


I don’t think this is necessarily true. To my understanding there is no bidirectional causation between samatha and vipassana.

By this I mean: if there is vipassana there is samatha. But this does not work the other direction. When there is samatha there is not necessarily vipassana.



I think it's a partly a question of how we're using terminology, but practically speaking I find that greater stillness ( samatha ) inevitably involves greater clarity ( vipassana ).
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Re: nirvana through jhana?

Postby tsurezuregusa » Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:09 pm

Hello,

Spiny Norman wrote:I think it's a partly a question of how we're using terminology


this is true.

Spiny Norman wrote:but practically speaking I find that greater stillness ( samatha ) inevitably involves greater clarity ( vipassana ).


For me very simplified, vipassana is seeing the 3 characteristics in the 5 aggregates. And I cannot see how increasing samatha while focusing on a mental image in the Kasina meditation is able to develop that. Both Analayo and Gunaratana argue that samadhi, which is very closely linked to samatha, as concentration is exclusive in focusing on one object. While sati, as a supporting factor of samadhi and being itself supported by it, has a broader focus which Analayo calls "to be aware of variety". And only this awareness of variety let's one see the continuous arising and passing away of the aggregrates. Therefore in the sutta on the development (bhavana) of concentration (samadhi) the Buddha says:

And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clinging-aggregates. (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html)


Analyo continues to point out that deep concentration is an impediment to the awaress of variety - the 5 aggregates and their characteristics. Satipatthana is more a process meditation rather than an object meditation like Kasina etc.

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Re: nirvana through jhana?

Postby martinfrank » Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:38 pm

SarathW wrote:Can someone clarify this?

(2) "And what is the development of concentration that... leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision.
==========
What does it mean to say "Night is the same as day"?
Can he sees in dark?
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Re: nirvana through jhana?

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:34 am

tsurezuregusa wrote:While sati, as a supporting factor of samadhi and being itself supported by it, has a broader focus which Analayo calls "to be aware of variety". And only this awareness of variety let's one see the continuous arising and passing away of the aggregrates.


I broadly agree, and it's clear from the suttas that sati and samadhi are mutually supporting and that both need to be developed as path factors. I think the 4 tetrads of anapanasati are a good example of a "joined-up" approach.

Similarly both vipassana and samatha need to be developed: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html.
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Re: nirvana through jhana?

Postby daverupa » Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:30 pm

tsurezuregusa wrote:But interestingly, in the Sarvastivada...


On that note, I do not find support for the claim. Both scholastic traditions contain both as pairs, with shifting emphases, and I already mentioned a Sutta where differing emphases are discussed, so we can see emerging scholastic preference alongside earlier, more prevalent discussion of their paired supporting nature.
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    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
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