jhanas and nirodha?...

Discussion of Samatha bhavana and Jhana bhavana.
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Akhandha
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jhanas and nirodha?...

Postby Akhandha » Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:02 pm

Good time, friends :anjali: :group:

I've got a question very important for me
sorry for my poor english - it's not my mother language

While meditating, I often get to a state when any perception stops, mind stops, where there is no more me and world, everything dissapears. There is no empty space nor endless mind. Indescribable state where everything has stopped and there is no perception.

All I can tell about this state - it's total absence.

Before it, at the beginning of the meditation, I usually feel waves of bliss in my body, my breath seems to stop at all, sometimes I can see bright white light, then a very strange silence which absorbs me... then my mind becomes infinitely still and fixed. It can last for some hours. At that stage, there is only pure perception without any little thought. My body then is like penetrated with high voltage electricity. all my muscles are rigid like metal. I forget myself, my personality. Only still and fixed mind remains. After it, I come not to feel my body at all. Then, everything disappears. Total absence.

After some time when I return from this total absence I think it was the greatest thing I've even experienced. I think - great, I didn't exist again))) This total absence becomes more and more frequent in my meditation.
Returning has the same stages, inverse order.

My question is: are these states jhanas and nirodha-samapatti, or what are they?

If it's necessary, I can answer any complementary questions.

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Postby culaavuso » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:07 pm

Akhandha wrote:My question is: are these states jhanas and nirodha-samapatti, or what are they?

If it's necessary, I can answer any complementary questions.


Were these practices learned from a teacher? Have these questions been asked of that teacher? If there is no qualified teacher available it might be possible to find one that can discuss these issues privately through mail, phone, or e-mail.

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Postby Akhandha » Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:45 pm

culaavuso wrote:
Akhandha wrote:My question is: are these states jhanas and nirodha-samapatti, or what are they?

If it's necessary, I can answer any complementary questions.


Were these practices learned from a teacher? Have these questions been asked of that teacher? If there is no qualified teacher available it might be possible to find one that can discuss these issues privately through mail, phone, or e-mail.


these states are the result of anapanasati meditation.
yes, I asked about it some Theravada monks and they say all different things or don't know at all.
yes, you're right. And I don't know where can I find such Teacher...Could anybody please help me to find such an experienced monk?...I'd be infinitely grateful... :anjali:

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Postby martinfrank » Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:04 pm

Akhandha wrote:Good time, friends :anjali: :group:

I've got a question very important for me
sorry for my poor english - it's not my mother language

While meditating, I often get to a state when any perception stops, mind stops, where there is no more me and world, everything dissapears. There is no empty space nor endless mind. Indescribable state where everything has stopped and there is no perception.

All I can tell about this state - it's total absence.

Before it, at the beginning of the meditation, I usually feel waves of bliss in my body, my breath seems to stop at all, sometimes I can see bright white light, then a very strange silence which absorbs me... then my mind becomes infinitely still and fixed. It can last for some hours. At that stage, there is only pure perception without any little thought. My body then is like penetrated with high voltage electricity. all my muscles are rigid like metal. I forget myself, my personality. Only still and fixed mind remains. After it, I come not to feel my body at all. Then, everything disappears. Total absence.

After some time when I return from this total absence I think it was the greatest thing I've even experienced. I think - great, I didn't exist again))) This total absence becomes more and more frequent in my meditation.
Returning has the same stages, inverse order.

My question is: are these states jhanas and nirodha-samapatti, or what are they?

If it's necessary, I can answer any complementary questions.



Never worry, you are doing great! This is called samadhi.

What next? You'll find the instruction here http://www.sunlun-meditation.net/ebooks/BIOENG.pdf from page 138 onward.
The Noble Eightfold Path: Proposed to all, imposed on none.

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Postby culaavuso » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:00 pm

Akhandha wrote:Could anybody please help me to find such an experienced monk?


Bhante Seelananda has an email address for meditation questions listed on the Bhavana Society contact page.
A mailing address and telephone number for reaching Ven. Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu can be found on the Wat Mettavanaram contact page.
One of the monks at Bodhinyana Monastery may be able to provide helpful input.
Contact information can also be found for Amaravati Buddhist Monastery.

Contacting monks may be difficult for the next couple months because it is currently during the rains retreat. The rains retreat will end on the first full moon of October (October 8).

If there is an accessible monastery, retreat center, or teacher that has provided guidance in developing these states then that may be the best place to look for guidance regarding the continuation of the practice.

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Postby Akhandha » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:11 pm

culaavuso,
Thank you very much for the information! :anjali: :anjali: :anjali:
I'll contact these venerable monks and ask them my questions.

martinfrank
thank you for you link too :anjali:

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Postby Mkoll » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:49 pm

It sounds like you can get into jhana. I'd say try to master it so you can get in and out of such states as you will. If you can't find a teacher, then perhaps you might look at AN 9.36. What should be done according to at least AN 9.36, is to apply insight to that state.

Anyway, I'm glad your practice is going so well. May I ask the details of how you do anapanasati?

AN 9.36 wrote:"I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'

"Suppose that an archer or archer's apprentice were to practice on a straw man or mound of clay, so that after a while he would become able to shoot long distances, to fire accurate shots in rapid succession, and to pierce great masses. In the same way, there is the case where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'

"Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very dhamma-passion, this very dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five of the fetters[1] — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world.

"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.

(Similarly with the second, third, and fourth jhana.)

"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of the infinitude of space.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'

"Suppose that an archer or archer's apprentice were to practice on a straw man or mound of clay, so that after a while he would become able to shoot long distances, to fire accurate shots in rapid succession, and to pierce great masses. In the same way, there is the case where a monk... enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of space. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'

"Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very dhamma-passion, this very dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five of the fetters — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world.

"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of the infinitude of space.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said.

(Similarly with the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness and the dimension of nothingness.)

"Thus, as far as the perception-attainments go, that is as far as gnosis-penetration goes. As for these two dimensions — the attainment of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception & the attainment of the cessation of feeling & perception — I tell you that they are to be rightly explained by those monks who are meditators, skilled in attaining, skilled in attaining & emerging, who have attained & emerged in dependence on them."
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Postby SarathW » Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:39 am


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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Postby Akhandha » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:31 am

Mkoll wrote: I'd say try to master it so you can get in and out of such states as you will.

Yes, I'm training to enter them as I will.

Mkoll wrote:May I ask the details of how you do anapanasati?

I do anapanasati lying on my back
I breathe "Bud-dho" with my attention fixed under my nose.
If - at the beginning - any thougts come, I just make my attention return to my object.

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Postby Mkoll » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:40 am

Akhandha wrote:
Mkoll wrote: I'd say try to master it so you can get in and out of such states as you will.

Yes, I'm training to enter them as I will.

Mkoll wrote:May I ask the details of how you do anapanasati?

I do anapanasati lying on my back
I breathe "Bud-dho" with my attention fixed under my nose.
If - at the beginning - any thougts come, I just make my attention return to my object.

:thanks:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Postby EmptyShadow » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:32 pm

Akhandha wrote:While meditating, I often get to a state when any perception stops, mind stops, where there is no more me and world, everything dissapears. There is no empty space nor endless mind. Indescribable state where everything has stopped and there is no perception.

All I can tell about this state - it's total absence.


It could be some sort of samadhi but from your discription it sound like a bhavanga state.

This is from Shaila Catherine's book: Wisdom Wide and Deep: "A Practical Handbook for Mastering Jhana and Vipassana"
"To the meditator, a lapse into the bhavanga state may seem as though everything has stopped and nothing particular is known. Meditators describe this as being "aware of nothing" and may mistakenly allude to it as an experience of emptiness, yet thay will not possess clarity regarding the object of attention.Sometimes it can seem as though time is just lost. The posture may remain upright; hence, it does not have the obvious features usually associated with sleepiness or dullness. It is usually a very pleasent state, and overconfident meditators may presume it is an accomplishment, or perhaps even the attainment of nibbana. In reality, however, the mental faculties are not yet strong enought to discern the subtle functioning of this state of consciousness that links cognitive processes. If a meditator enjoys the pleasant but unclear state of bhavanga and repeatedly dwells in it, the meditation will stagnate and soon the mind will dull into complacency.
Extended lapses into bhavanga are likely to happen prior to jhana. These commonly occur as the meditator approaches the threshold to jhana but will not happen while actually absorbed in jhana.These lapses are compared to a child who is learing to walk - at first the toffler takes just a few steps and then falls down, tries a few more strides, and again collapses.The mind in jhana, by contrast, is stable and adroit, and the jhana factors are strong.It is likened to a healthy adult who can walk whenever, wherever, and for however long she desires, without stumbling or hesitation."


As for nirodha-samapatti, according to buddhist texts, it's only accessible for non-returners and arahants who have mastered the 8 jhanas.

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Postby Lostegasa » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:49 pm

The best advice I can give to you is until you are sure of what you are doing with clear abilities and knowledge of what you have done then keep going until you reach certainty and clarity.

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Postby Akhandha » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:17 pm

Lostegasa wrote:The best advice I can give to you is until you are sure of what you are doing with clear abilities and knowledge of what you have done then keep going until you reach certainty and clarity.


That's right, thank you much. :anjali:

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Postby Akhandha » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:32 pm

EmptyShadow wrote:
Akhandha wrote:While meditating, I often get to a state when any perception stops, mind stops, where there is no more me and world, everything dissapears. There is no empty space nor endless mind. Indescribable state where everything has stopped and there is no perception.

All I can tell about this state - it's total absence.


It could be some sort of samadhi but from your discription it sound like a bhavanga state.

This is from Shaila Catherine's book: Wisdom Wide and Deep: "A Practical Handbook for Mastering Jhana and Vipassana"
"To the meditator, a lapse into the bhavanga state may seem as though everything has stopped and nothing particular is known. Meditators describe this as being "aware of nothing" and may mistakenly allude to it as an experience of emptiness, yet thay will not possess clarity regarding the object of attention.Sometimes it can seem as though time is just lost. The posture may remain upright; hence, it does not have the obvious features usually associated with sleepiness or dullness. It is usually a very pleasent state, and overconfident meditators may presume it is an accomplishment, or perhaps even the attainment of nibbana. In reality, however, the mental faculties are not yet strong enought to discern the subtle functioning of this state of consciousness that links cognitive processes. If a meditator enjoys the pleasant but unclear state of bhavanga and repeatedly dwells in it, the meditation will stagnate and soon the mind will dull into complacency.
Extended lapses into bhavanga are likely to happen prior to jhana. These commonly occur as the meditator approaches the threshold to jhana but will not happen while actually absorbed in jhana.These lapses are compared to a child who is learing to walk - at first the toffler takes just a few steps and then falls down, tries a few more strides, and again collapses.The mind in jhana, by contrast, is stable and adroit, and the jhana factors are strong.It is likened to a healthy adult who can walk whenever, wherever, and for however long she desires, without stumbling or hesitation."


As for nirodha-samapatti, according to buddhist texts, it's only accessible for non-returners and arahants who have mastered the 8 jhanas.


OK, may I ask you some questions about the text above?

1) How much time can bhavanga last? It seems to me, bhavanga it's a very short moment of time. I also know these " short moments of total absence", but my question isn't about them, it's interesting for me to know about LONG total absence which can last for hours and which FOLLOWS the jhanas.
2) This total absence ususally comes AFTER at least 4 jhanas, each level is felt just the same as described in the Pali Canon.
3) There is no subject ni object of perceprion, no conscience at all, no perception at all. What is it?

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Postby Bakmoon » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:40 pm

Akhandha wrote:Good time, friends :anjali: :group:

I've got a question very important for me
sorry for my poor english - it's not my mother language

While meditating, I often get to a state when any perception stops, mind stops, where there is no more me and world, everything dissapears. There is no empty space nor endless mind. Indescribable state where everything has stopped and there is no perception.

All I can tell about this state - it's total absence.

Before it, at the beginning of the meditation, I usually feel waves of bliss in my body, my breath seems to stop at all, sometimes I can see bright white light, then a very strange silence which absorbs me... then my mind becomes infinitely still and fixed. It can last for some hours. At that stage, there is only pure perception without any little thought. My body then is like penetrated with high voltage electricity. all my muscles are rigid like metal. I forget myself, my personality. Only still and fixed mind remains. After it, I come not to feel my body at all. Then, everything disappears. Total absence.

After some time when I return from this total absence I think it was the greatest thing I've even experienced. I think - great, I didn't exist again))) This total absence becomes more and more frequent in my meditation.
Returning has the same stages, inverse order.

My question is: are these states jhanas and nirodha-samapatti, or what are they?

If it's necessary, I can answer any complementary questions.


After you come out of this state, what happens if you try to remember what it was like?
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Postby Kumara » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:41 am

Akhandha wrote:3) There is no subject ni object of perceprion, no conscience at all, no perception at all. What is it?

Deep sleep?

I'd recommend reading this article by Aj Thanissaro: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... mbers.html Somewhere in it speaks of the experience,
I'll be away from 20 April. Be well!

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Postby Akhandha » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:39 pm

Bakmoon wrote:After you come out of this state, what happens if you try to remember what it was like?


Impossible to remember anything because there is total absence of perception
no subject to perceive
indescribable, totally inconscient state
returning from it, the first thing that appears is conscience

One man told me that it's maybe asañña samapatti which can follow the 4th jhana
what do you think about it?
Last edited by Akhandha on Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Postby srivijaya » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:46 pm

Akhandha wrote:
Bakmoon wrote:After you come out of this state, what happens if you try to remember what it was like?


Impossible to remember anything because there is total absence of perception
no subject to perceive
indescribable, totally inconscient state
returning from it, the first thing that appears is conscience

Whilst in this state are you able to hear loud noises, like the phone ringing, or a dog barking? If someone came into the room and shook you, would you respond, or would they call an ambulance?
Are you able to arise from this state by deciding to do so at any point, or does it just run by itself?

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Postby Akhandha » Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:31 pm

srivijaya wrote:Whilst in this state are you able to hear loud noises, like the phone ringing, or a dog barking? If someone came into the room and shook you, would you respond, or would they call an ambulance?
Are you able to arise from this state by deciding to do so at any point, or does it just run by itself?


I can't arise from this state at my will because there is no ME to perceive what happens and to WANT anything
the state comes to his end by itself
About shooking me - I never had such situation when anybody would try to make me return from this state
About loud noises - too, never tried
usually I enter this state at night - as a result of meditation

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Re: jhanas and nirodha?...

Postby Akhandha » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:00 pm

Kumara wrote:
Akhandha wrote:3) There is no subject ni object of perceprion, no conscience at all, no perception at all. What is it?

Deep sleep?

I'd recommend reading this article by Aj Thanissaro: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... mbers.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Somewhere in it speaks of the experience,


I never sleep deeply. My awareness is very high while sleeping.

Once the breath was perfectly still, and the sense of the body started dissolving into a formless mist, this process would involve detecting the perceptions of "space," "knowing," "oneness," etc., that would appear in place of the body http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... mbers.html


Yes, I also know this state.
The state I ask about comes after this stage


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