Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Lazy_eye
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by Lazy_eye »

David N. Snyder wrote:You do not need to permanently abstain from sex, but certainly for the meditation session. One cannot enter jhana unless the five hindrances are put at bay, at least temporarily and for the duration of the meditation session.
I'm glad this topic came up. I've been listening to some talks by Ayya Khema, who puts a lot of emphasis on the jhanas, and she urges her (lay) followers to practice at least twice a day -- a morning session and an evening one. Which made me wonder about the logistics of integrating this into ordinary married life. Dinner...followed by jhana...and then maybe a movie on HBO and later a romp in the sack?

Is this really feasible?
Heavenstorm
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by Heavenstorm »

DorjePhurba wrote:Recently someone suggested that a meditator must abstain from sex in order to gain jhanic concentration. I've been reading a lot about jhana lately and have not come across anyone suggesting that. Could anyone shed some light and explain whether the Buddha ever said this?
Its half correct. In a retreat setting, abstain from sex is a must, of course. But for someone who has a daily job and life, its not possible to abstain completely, in this case, sex is discourage but not necessary forbidden.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by tiltbillings »

Lazy_eye wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:You do not need to permanently abstain from sex, but certainly for the meditation session. One cannot enter jhana unless the five hindrances are put at bay, at least temporarily and for the duration of the meditation session.
I'm glad this topic came up. I've been listening to some talks by Ayya Khema, who puts a lot of emphasis on the jhanas, and she urges her (lay) followers to practice at least twice a day -- a morning session and an evening one. Which made me wonder about the logistics of integrating this into ordinary married life. Dinner...followed by jhana...and then maybe a movie on HBO and later a romp in the sack?

Is this really feasible?
Depends. Attaining jhana is not in and of itself a sign of holiness or spiritual advancement or whatever expression one wishes. It may be a sign of discipline or good merit from past lives. With the lower level jhanas, sex is not out of question, and here we are not talking about compulsive or obsessive sexual behavior. Going up the ladder, however, sex does come across as crude in comparison and one can get stuck in the senuality of jhanas. Again, jhana still does not mean insight nor advancement on the path. Jhana is a tool that needs to be used properly.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

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Dukkhanirodha wrote:
thereductor wrote: I would hazard to say that you are missing out. Really. Especially if you are having trouble with the hindrance of sesuality.
Do you mean to say I should practice these?
That's what I'm saying, yes.
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by Sekha »

Freawaru wrote:
Dukkhanirodha wrote:
sensual pleasures cannot coexist with actual progress towards wisdom
Wisdom is the detached awareness and discernment of sensual pleasure (among other things). So obviously sensual pleasure is able to coexist with wisdom.

I should rephrase my statement to give a better grasp of what I meant:

The quest for sensual pleasures cannot coexist with actual progress towards wisdom
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by Sekha »

Heavenstorm wrote:
DorjePhurba wrote:Recently someone suggested that a meditator must abstain from sex in order to gain jhanic concentration. I've been reading a lot about jhana lately and have not come across anyone suggesting that. Could anyone shed some light and explain whether the Buddha ever said this?
Its half correct. In a retreat setting, abstain from sex is a must, of course. But for someone who has a daily job and life, its not possible to abstain completely, in this case, sex is discourage but not necessary forbidden.
why would it be impossible?

No one says it is forbidden or it is not. It is not compatible with attainment of jhanas
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by Kenshou »

It is not compatible with attainment of jhanas
The desire for sex is not compatible with the jhanas in the same way that the desire for a new tv or a bowl of ice cream isn't. What makes sex more special than any other physical pleasure or desire? It -is- one that can be a little more potent, but even so, it is not necessarily as potent of a distraction for everyone, and is not what matters weather or not it disturbs meditation-time? I don't see any reason why " Dinner...followed by jhana...and then maybe a movie on HBO and later a romp in the sack?" is unfeasible, provided that the meditator is able to properly drop all strings of sensuality when they sit down to meditate.
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by tiltbillings »

Kenshou wrote:
It is not compatible with attainment of jhanas
The desire for sex is not compatible with the jhanas in the same way that the desire for a new tv or a bowl of ice cream isn't. What makes sex more special than any other physical pleasure or desire? It -is- one that can be a little more potent, but even so, it is not necessarily as potent of a distraction for everyone, and is not what matters weather or not it disturbs meditation-time? I don't see any reason why " Dinner...followed by jhana...and then maybe a movie on HBO and later a romp in the sack?" is unfeasible, provided that the meditator is able to properly drop all strings of sensuality when they sit down to meditate.
You know all of this from direct experience?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by Kenshou »

Yes, though not that exact situation, I don't find sexual activity any more of a hindrance than any other pleasure. Personally I find no correlation between that and the frequency of good meditations, provided that is promptly dropped and does not show up during meditation. I make no claim of fact, but this is my opinion based off of what I've experienced.

But I would not argue against the fact that someone who abstains from sex, as well as other unnecessary pleasures, will probably do better in meditation than the one who doesn't. I'm sure they would, since sensual desires in general are further from their minds.
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by tiltbillings »

Kenshou wrote:Yes, though not that exact situation, I don't find sexual activity any more of a hindrance than any other pleasure. Personally I find no correlation between that and the frequency of good meditations, provided that is promptly dropped and does not show up during meditation. I make no claim of fact, but this is my opinion based off of what I've experienced.

But I would not argue against the fact that someone who abstains from sex, as well as other unnecessary pleasures, will probably do better in meditation than the one who doesn't. I'm sure they would, since sensual desires in general are further from their minds.
Broadly, speaking from my own experience, we do not disagree.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Heavenstorm
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by Heavenstorm »

Dukkhanirodha wrote:
Heavenstorm wrote:
DorjePhurba wrote:Recently someone suggested that a meditator must abstain from sex in order to gain jhanic concentration. I've been reading a lot about jhana lately and have not come across anyone suggesting that. Could anyone shed some light and explain whether the Buddha ever said this?
Its half correct. In a retreat setting, abstain from sex is a must, of course. But for someone who has a daily job and life, its not possible to abstain completely, in this case, sex is discourage but not necessary forbidden.
why would it be impossible?
I'm assuming that people in general don't want to adapt a monastic lite lifestyle in their normal routine over here. In that situation, its not really possible to abstain completely from sex especially for married couple.
It is not compatible with attainment of jhanas
I don't think anyone will agree that one can cultivate Jhana while having sex at the same time. The contesting point in this thread is more like "How often one have sex in conjunction with their daily meditation practice". In that case, I don't think anyone here will want to have sex everyday, more like infrequent times in terms of once per week or month which doesn't lead to great lust or great hindrance.
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by Sekha »

thereductor wrote:
Dukkhanirodha wrote:
thereductor wrote: I would hazard to say that you are missing out. Really. Especially if you are having trouble with the hindrance of sesuality.
Do you mean to say I should practice these?
That's what I'm saying, yes.

I guess you're assuming that since there is a matter of sexual sensations during the meditation, this technique should be used. As far as I understand this section of mhstp sutta, it is a starting point only, involving specific thoughts making (quite gross way of practicing), and is meant for people who could not start with another section, for example anapanasati. Such people who can't stop thinking about sexual affairs or matters of beauty of the body, and for whom the breath is too subtle as an object of concentration. They need to get their mind settled.

But there are much finer sankharas linked to sexual clinging, which have to be worked out by finer practices. This is what I mean here. I meditate on average 7 hours a day, so I do have moderately deep rooted sankharas coming up. These sensations usually come up in my morning session only after about 1 hour and a half of continuous practice. It is not as if I would sit for half an hour and feel bothered by sexual sensations, which is appearingly the context in which my statements are understood.
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by Sekha »

Kenshou wrote:
It is not compatible with attainment of jhanas
The desire for sex is not compatible with the jhanas in the same way that the desire for a new tv or a bowl of ice cream isn't. What makes sex more special than any other physical pleasure or desire? It -is- one that can be a little more potent, but even so, it is not necessarily as potent of a distraction for everyone, and is not what matters weather or not it disturbs meditation-time? I don't see any reason why " Dinner...followed by jhana...and then maybe a movie on HBO and later a romp in the sack?" is unfeasible, provided that the meditator is able to properly drop all strings of sensuality when they sit down to meditate.

Desire for sex is the strongest of desires. Not to be compared with other desires. I would say the second one is food (from personal experience).
it is not necessarily as potent of a distraction for everyone
It is, unless you've already gone beyond and utterly given up sex in your life. With a practice which remains shallow, one may not feel that bothered (that was the case for me at the beginning) by it, but it would be totally different if the abstinence had to last much longer and the pratice to go much deeper.
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by Sekha »

Heavenstorm wrote:
It is not compatible with attainment of jhanas
I don't think anyone will agree that one can cultivate Jhana while having sex at the same time. The contesting point in this thread is more like "How often one have sex in conjunction with their daily meditation practice". In that case, I don't think anyone here will want to have sex everyday, more like infrequent times in terms of once per week or month which doesn't lead to great lust or great hindrance.
The answer in my view to the 'contesting point' is: never. What happens during the meditation is linked with everything else you do in your daily life (which is why its effects are so mighty), so you can't keep multiplying your cravings on one side and try to suppress them on the other for a long time. If you really want to get the real fruits of this path, a choice has to be made at some point.
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Re: Do you have to abstain from sex to achieve jhana?

Post by bodom »

Dukkhanirodha wrote:The answer in my view to the 'contesting point' is: never. What happens during the meditation is linked with everything else you do in your daily life (which is why its effects are so mighty), so you can't keep multiplying your cravings on one side and try to suppress them on the other for a long time. If you really want to get the real fruits of this path, a choice has to be made at some point.
That might be your take, but Ajahn Brahm and Bhante Gunaratana both experts in the practice and theory of Jhana and who have each written manuals for lay practitioners on how to attain jhana, neither one mentioned complete abstinence from sex. Even the buddha who recommended householders to abide in seclusion and rapture mentions nothing about celibacy only that...“When a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture...The pain & distress dependent on sensuality do not exist AT THAT TIME.”

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Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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