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The Great Jhana Debate - Page 16 - Dhamma Wheel

The Great Jhana Debate

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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mikenz66
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:27 pm


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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:34 pm


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Alex123
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:33 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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mikenz66
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:58 am


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daverupa
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby daverupa » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:26 am

Putting essentials like that in one Nikaya and not distributing them equally seems to be a strange choice. If anything, this feels like the more active, "diagnostic" if you like, component of the Sangha, and I'd be inclined to think meditation assignation was a more active teaching than SuttaVinaya recitation.

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Alex123
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:41 am

“When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple listens to the Dhamma with eager ears, attending to it as a matter of vital concern, directing his whole mind to it, on that occasion the five hindrances are not present in him; on that occasion the seven factors of enlightenment go to fulfilment by development."
SN46.38 (8) Without Hindrances - BB Trans.

Please note what can counteract 5 hindrances and develop seven factors of awakening. One of the Seven factors of awakening is Concentration (samādhi).

So that quote from another Nikaya supports phrases such as: 419. If he develops right view for the fraction of a second, it is said he abides in jhana,
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ali-e.html

Also, samma-samādhi may be a concentration of 7 factors of Noble 8 Path:
"The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Again, this fits with what was said in AN.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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mikenz66
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 1:58 am


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reflection
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby reflection » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:21 am


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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby starter » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:02 pm

To me: it doesn’t matter which style of jhana or which level of jhana, as long as the mind can become steady, free from distractions and hindrances (including distractive thoughts), with which we can gain true knowledge [only a hindrance-free mind can see the truth).

Metta to all,

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chownah
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby chownah » Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:21 am

Seems like some people can jhana very easily and some can not....for those that jhana easily then going up the ladder is probably beneficial as long as it is not clung to....for those who can not jhana easily then there are other paths which are perhaps more appropriate for them and these paths require only the concentration that they require and no more....
chownah

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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby starter » Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:55 pm

Well, in my previous post I wrote "it doesn’t matter which style of jhana or which level of jhana, as long as the mind can become steady, free from distractions and hindrances (including distractive thoughts), with which we can gain true knowledge [only a hindrance-free mind can see the truth)". After a second thought, I think the training methods do matter since some might not really lead to sufficient steadiness of the mind needed for gaining true knowledge.

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental assavas".

The jhana/vipassana combination method described in MN 111 might suit only those who have already mastered high level of samadhi and can enter/exit jhanas at ease. Ven. Sariputta was an ascetic for years before becoming the disciple of the Buddha, and was able to reach the 8 jhanas one after another and finally the cessation of perception and feeling within two weeks. Considering that even the Buddha needed one year to master the nothingless jhana and another year to master the neither percipient nor non-percipient jhana, very likely Ven. Sariputta had also mastered these two jhanas before coming to the Buddha, so he could proceed so rapidly and do vipassana while in jhana.

Just some food for thought.

Metta to all,

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space_wrangler
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby space_wrangler » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:02 pm

trying to argue for two distinct types of meditation being taught by the buddha is not skillfull means....how can u practice vipassana without developing samatha? or if you devalop samatha as taught by the buddha, vipassana will arise. instead of trying to prove a point of view, just practice, practice, practice. just my humble opinion.
metta to all

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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby ignobleone » Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:57 am


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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:47 am


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reflection
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby reflection » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:04 am


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daverupa
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby daverupa » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:51 am

I hypothesize that jhana debates are, in sum, debates about (a) the authority of various parts of the Theravada Canon, due to (b) the differing cognitive - though preferably phenomenological - interpretations of the factors (including whether or not factor A is part of Jhana X).

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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby ignobleone » Tue May 01, 2012 3:36 am


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reflection
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby reflection » Tue May 01, 2012 5:45 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby tiltbillings » Tue May 01, 2012 6:34 am


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Alex123
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Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Postby Alex123 » Thu May 03, 2012 5:33 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."


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