The Great Jhana Debate

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Reflection,
reflection wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: So is it the development of the jhana factors, or the absorption itself that is important?
Both. The first is to strengthen the mind, make it fearless, so it can penetrate the dhamma more easily.

But the second may be even more important. If the mind never has seen itself, how can you contemplate it? :shrug: When you don't even know what it is, it's almost a waste of time to do this. There may be some extraordinarily gifted people who can, but I think most of the people can't. As I've said before, how do you want to know how an engine works without having opened the car bonnet? When the mind is inside of itself, it gets data about the aggregates that is unmissable. Because in absorption there is no decision making, you can really contemplate the no-self of volitions, for example. After the absorption, of course. ;)
Yes, I know that's Ajahn Brahm's line. Absorption is no doubt effective for some things. But that view of other approaches seems to me to misrepresent the practices that I am most familiar with.

To continue your metaphor, you don't have to stop an engine to look under the bonnet. In the practice I do we're not talking about sitting around "contemplating". We're talking about (after a couple of days of silent retreat) a very quiet mind, strong samadhi, and fast, precise, cognition of objects arising and ceasing. Watching the engine idling, in fact...

I do get pleasant states where nothing seems to be happening (no decisions possible, though I don't think it is real absorption jhana). My assessment of that is the same as in the Sutta I quoted above: This is peaceful, but impermanent... Just another nice state to not get attached to...

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by mikenz66 »

A slightly different slant on Jhana is the question of what meditation objects lead to Jhana.

According to the Commentaries, the objects that can be used for all Jhanas tend to be what might be described as "simple conceptual objects" (kasisna, brahamaviharas, immaterial objects). The slightly odd addition to this is breathing, but according to the commentaries and teachers such as Ajahn Brahm, one doesn't achieve jhana using the breath itself, but using the breath-induced nimitta.

Some subjects lead only to first Jhana: Foulness and body.
Some only access concentration: recollections, elements, food as loathsome.

Now, as far as I can tell, the vast majority of Suttas mentioning Jhana don't actually say how it is achieved. E.g. the typical "Gradual Training" suttas such as:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .horn.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
with the sequence: Morality, Sense-control, Moderation in eating, Vigilance, Mindfulness and clear consciousness, Overcoming of the five hindrances, Jhana, The Three Knowledges
"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it has come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are mental fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.'
As far as attaining jhana, or some kind of samadhi, there are a some suttas that discuss the above objects, including
Breath: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Kasinas: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 10&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Body: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Various (body, elements, etc, etc: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Recollections: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... all-Buddha" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brahma-viharas: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Foulness: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is the knowledge about which objects can be used for various Jhanas implicit in the Suttas, or was it common knowledge, and/or recorded in the commentaries from experience?

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by Alex123 »

mikenz66 wrote: Is the knowledge about which objects can be used for various Jhanas implicit in the Suttas, or was it common knowledge, and/or recorded in the commentaries from experience?
There are interesting suttas found in AN Book of 1s (Aparaaccharāsaṅghātavaggo) that say that :

jhana can last a short duration.
382. If the bhikkhu could raise his mind to the first jhana for the fraction of a second,
382. ‘‘Accharāsaṅghātamattampi ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ bhāveti...


Some things that can lead to Jhana:
419. If he develops right view for the fraction of a second, it is said he abides in jhana,
558. If he develops the mental faculty of wisdom for the fraction of a second, it is said he abides in jhana.
464. If he develops the recollection of the Teaching, for the fraction of a second, it is said he abides in jhana.
455. If he develops the perception of loathsomeness in food, for the fraction of a second, it is said he abides in jhana.

http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ali-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It lists all other factors of N8P, and 37 factors of Awakening, and various objects that can induce Jhana are listed.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by mikenz66 »

Thanks Alex!

This section mentions kasinas, elements, breathing, and all kinds of other stuff:
447. If he develops the meditation object blue color, for the fraction of a second, it is said he abides in jhana. Has done his duties by the Teacher, and eats the country's alms food without a debt. If he makes much of that, it would be more gainful.
More reasons to await with interest Bhikkhu Bodhi's new AN translation, and to not assume that the Sutta selections available on sites like Access to Insight are particularly comprehensive...

:anjali:
Mike
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by daverupa »

Putting essentials like that in one Nikaya and not distributing them equally seems to be a strange choice. If anything, this feels like the more active, "diagnostic" if you like, component of the Sangha, and I'd be inclined to think meditation assignation was a more active teaching than SuttaVinaya recitation.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by Alex123 »

“When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple listens to the Dhamma with eager ears, attending to it as a matter of vital concern, directing his whole mind to it, on that occasion the five hindrances are not present in him; on that occasion the seven factors of enlightenment go to fulfilment by development."
SN46.38 (8) Without Hindrances - BB Trans.

Please note what can counteract 5 hindrances and develop seven factors of awakening. One of the Seven factors of awakening is Concentration (samādhi).

So that quote from another Nikaya supports phrases such as: 419. If he develops right view for the fraction of a second, it is said he abides in jhana,
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ali-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, samma-samādhi may be a concentration of 7 factors of Noble 8 Path:
"The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Again, this fits with what was said in AN.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Dave,
daverupa wrote:Putting essentials like that in one Nikaya and not distributing them equally seems to be a strange choice. If anything, this feels like the more active, "diagnostic" if you like, component of the Sangha, and I'd be inclined to think meditation assignation was a more active teaching than SuttaVinaya recitation.
Well, sure, you can start guessing about what are later additions, used to justify doctinal analysis, or used for propaganda (in my more cynical moments, the "Four Great References" and the "no closed fist" statements in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta read as insertions designed to be used to put down other sects... :tongue: ) or you can dismiss the whole of the AN as being for telling stories to lay people...

However, all those techniques are mentioned in other places. Furthermore, the SN also contains large tracts of exhaustive listings.

There are a number of gems about meditation in the AN. This extract that Geoff provided above, which also isn't on Access to Insight, is a rather good summary of how many of us see practice (and the idea is repeated in other places... [MN123 for example: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... tta-e.html]
AN 4.41 Samādhibhāvanā Sutta
  • And what, monks, is the development of meditative composure that, when developed and cultivated, leads to mindfulness and full awareness? Here, monks, feelings are known to a monk as they arise, known as they are present, known as they disappear. Recognitions are known to him as they arise, known as they are present, known as they disappear. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they are present, known as they disappear. This, monks, is the development of meditative composure that, when developed and cultivated, leads to mindfulness and full awareness.
:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
reflection
Posts: 1116
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 pm

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by reflection »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Reflection,
reflection wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: So is it the development of the jhana factors, or the absorption itself that is important?
Both. The first is to strengthen the mind, make it fearless, so it can penetrate the dhamma more easily.

But the second may be even more important. If the mind never has seen itself, how can you contemplate it? :shrug: When you don't even know what it is, it's almost a waste of time to do this. There may be some extraordinarily gifted people who can, but I think most of the people can't. As I've said before, how do you want to know how an engine works without having opened the car bonnet? When the mind is inside of itself, it gets data about the aggregates that is unmissable. Because in absorption there is no decision making, you can really contemplate the no-self of volitions, for example. After the absorption, of course. ;)
Yes, I know that's Ajahn Brahm's line. Absorption is no doubt effective for some things. But that view of other approaches seems to me to misrepresent the practices that I am most familiar with.

To continue your metaphor, you don't have to stop an engine to look under the bonnet. In the practice I do we're not talking about sitting around "contemplating". We're talking about (after a couple of days of silent retreat) a very quiet mind, strong samadhi, and fast, precise, cognition of objects arising and ceasing. Watching the engine idling, in fact...

I do get pleasant states where nothing seems to be happening (no decisions possible, though I don't think it is real absorption jhana). My assessment of that is the same as in the Sutta I quoted above: This is peaceful, but impermanent... Just another nice state to not get attached to...

:anjali:
Mike
Hi,

I don't fully support the major importance Ajahn Brahm puts on absorption. Sometimes he puts it like you can't do anything without it. Obviously from the suttas this is not true. Some people reached stream entry without jhana for example.

With metta,
Reflection
starter
Posts: 938
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by starter »

To me: it doesn’t matter which style of jhana or which level of jhana, as long as the mind can become steady, free from distractions and hindrances (including distractive thoughts), with which we can gain true knowledge [only a hindrance-free mind can see the truth).

Metta to all,

Starter
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by chownah »

Seems like some people can jhana very easily and some can not....for those that jhana easily then going up the ladder is probably beneficial as long as it is not clung to....for those who can not jhana easily then there are other paths which are perhaps more appropriate for them and these paths require only the concentration that they require and no more....
chownah
starter
Posts: 938
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by starter »

Well, in my previous post I wrote "it doesn’t matter which style of jhana or which level of jhana, as long as the mind can become steady, free from distractions and hindrances (including distractive thoughts), with which we can gain true knowledge [only a hindrance-free mind can see the truth)". After a second thought, I think the training methods do matter since some might not really lead to sufficient steadiness of the mind needed for gaining true knowledge.

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental assavas".

The jhana/vipassana combination method described in MN 111 might suit only those who have already mastered high level of samadhi and can enter/exit jhanas at ease. Ven. Sariputta was an ascetic for years before becoming the disciple of the Buddha, and was able to reach the 8 jhanas one after another and finally the cessation of perception and feeling within two weeks. Considering that even the Buddha needed one year to master the nothingless jhana and another year to master the neither percipient nor non-percipient jhana, very likely Ven. Sariputta had also mastered these two jhanas before coming to the Buddha, so he could proceed so rapidly and do vipassana while in jhana.

Just some food for thought.

Metta to all,

Starter
User avatar
space_wrangler
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:37 am

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by space_wrangler »

trying to argue for two distinct types of meditation being taught by the buddha is not skillfull means....how can u practice vipassana without developing samatha? or if you devalop samatha as taught by the buddha, vipassana will arise. instead of trying to prove a point of view, just practice, practice, practice. just my humble opinion.
metta to all
ignobleone
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:15 pm

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by ignobleone »

Hi folks,
Please allow me to post a continuation from other thread titled "my goals and ways of practice"(http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 4&start=60" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) here. The site admin said that any discussion focused primarily on the jhanas should continue in jhana threads. I hope this is the right place.
tiltbillings wrote:I am going to pass. Sometime it feels like life is way too short for these endless,
It's endless since there's no clear measure has been established to decide the end. After a measure has been established, maturity to accept losing in the debate is required, no exception. Only then this jhana debate can be put to an end.
tiltbillings wrote:and often fruitless, debates about the jhanas.
If the debate can be ended, things will be clearer than before, it'll be of great fruit for everyone in this forum since it promotes right view.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by tiltbillings »

ignobleone wrote:It's endless since there's no clear measure has been established to decide the end. After a measure has been established, maturity to accept losing in the debate is required, no exception. Only then this jhana debate can be put to an end.
I am not worried about losing a debate, but I have not seen anything here that unequivocally would bring the debate to an end, which is not say that this issue should not be discussed. Quite frankly, having worked with jhana practice, having been taught by an experienced teacher, I'd rather do the practice than waste time on endless opinionating.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
reflection
Posts: 1116
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 pm

Re: The Great Jhana Debate

Post by reflection »

ignobleone wrote: If the debate can be ended, things will be clearer than before, it'll be of great fruit for everyone in this forum since it promotes right view.
Well, a debate on Buddhist ideas is in my view usually not done to end it, to prove a point, or to come to a final conclusion. Especially in the case of this jhana debate, this'll never happen anyway; the only way to come to some sort of a conclusion about jhana is by own experience. But still I think these debates can be useful to show others our point of view, maybe inspire them, or get them at least an idea of what we think is the "right track".
Post Reply