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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:39 pm
by Alex123
Ñāṇa wrote:Jhāna which scrutinizes characteristics (lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna) and supramundane jhāna (lokuttarajjhāna) are still considered necessary.
Which as I understand it come at the moment of awakening (maggaphala).

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:20 pm
by Nyana
Alex123 wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:Jhāna which scrutinizes characteristics (lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna) and supramundane jhāna (lokuttarajjhāna) are still considered necessary.
Which as I understand it come at the moment of awakening (maggaphala).
Lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna isn't limited to magga & phala, it pertains to vipassanā as well. Saṃyuttanikāya Sāratthappakāsinī Sagāthāvagga Aṭṭhakathā 1.36 Saddhāsuttavaṇṇanā:
  • Tattha lakkhaṇūpanijjhānaṃ nāma vipassanāmaggaphalāni.

    Therein, lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna is the name of insight, path, and fruit.

    Vipassanā hi tīṇi lakkhaṇāni upanijjhāyatīti lakkhaṇūpanijjhānaṃ.

    Insight meditates upon the three characteristics, therefore it is meditation on characteristics.

    Maggo vipassanāya āgatakiccaṃ sādhetīti lakkhaṇūpanijjhānaṃ.

    The path completes the task begun by insight, therefore it is meditation on characteristics.

    Phalaṃ tathalakkhaṇaṃ nirodhasaccaṃ upanijjhāyatīti lakkhaṇūpanijjhānaṃ.

    Fruition meditates on the characteristic of reality that is the truth of cessation, therefore it is meditation on characteristics.

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:33 pm
by Alex123
Hello Ñāṇa,

What about all the teachings in Patisambhidamagga that at stream entry path (and higher paths as well) various factors occur including what you would call Lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna and vipassanā?
360. At the moment of the stream-entry path: Right view in the sense of seeing is then arrived at, right thought in the sense of directing onto is then arrived at, right speaking in the sense of embracing ... , right acting in the sense of originating ... , [74] right living in the sense of cleansing..., right effort in the sense of exerting..., right mindfulness in the sense of establishing ..., right concentration in the sense of non-distraction is then arrived at;

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:29 am
by Nyana
Alex123 wrote:What about all the teachings in Patisambhidamagga that at stream entry path (and higher paths as well) various factors occur including what you would call Lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna and vipassanā?
What about them Alex?

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:37 am
by Modus.Ponens
The possibility of people reaching arya states, without jhana doesn't mean that all people can do that. The universal path, i.e., the noble 8fold path, includes jhana.

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 2:01 am
by Alex123
Modus.Ponens wrote:The possibility of people reaching arya states, without jhana doesn't mean that all people can do that. The universal path, i.e., the noble 8fold path, includes jhana.
At the maggaphala moment there is proper jhāna, vipassanā and other factors occurring.

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:59 pm
by Nyana
For anyone interested in the jhāna related pericopes found in the suttas, here is what the commentary on the Sāmaññaphala Sutta has to offer for the following passage pertaining to the first jhāna:
  • He drenches, steeps, fills, and permeates this very body with the joy and pleasure born of seclusion so that there is no part of his whole body that is not permeated by joy and pleasure born of seclusion.
The commentary explains:
  • This very body: this body born of action [i.e. born of kamma]. He drenches: he moistens, he extends joy and pleasure everywhere. Steeps: to flow all over. Fills: like filling a bellows with air. Permeates: to touch all over.

    His whole body: in this monk's body, with all its parts, in the place where acquired [form] continuity occurs there is not even the smallest part consisting of skin, flesh, and blood that is not permeated with the pleasure of the first jhāna.

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:34 pm
by Alex123
Hello Geoff,

This is interesting. Does this suggest that 5 sense consciousness still function in Jhāna, but that they do not disturb the person in Jhāna?

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 9:44 pm
by Nyana
Alex123 wrote:Does this suggest that 5 sense consciousness still function in Jhāna, but that they do not disturb the person in Jhāna?
Well, the five sense faculties still function, but since the object-support of jhāna is a mental representation, it's accurate to say that the functioning consciousness is mental consciousness. As MN 38 Mahātaṇhāsankhaya Sutta informs us, "Consciousness is reckoned by the particular condition dependent upon which it arises."

Attending to a mental representation (nimitta) in jhāna doesn't require that all the five senses are totally shut down. There is a difference between attending to a mental representation via mental consciousness, and the formless attainments wherein the mind is totally isolated from the five sense faculties. In commentarial terms, attending exclusively to a cognitive representation already occurs at the stage of access samādhi. Thus, the engagement is exclusively that of the recognition of the counterpart representation via mental consciousness. The difference between access samādhi and and the first jhāna is the degree of stability of the jhāna factors. The difference between the first jhāna and the formless attainments is indicated in both the Vimuttimagga and the Visuddhimagga when they discuss the formless attainments and mention Aḷāra Kālāma not seeing or hearing the five-hundred carts passing by when abiding in a formless attainment.

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:51 pm
by SamKR
This is a very useful thread. Are all of these ideas available directly in the website http://measurelessmind.ca/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

Ñāṇa, is your paper "Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas" completed and available online?

I am asking because I would prefer to read a whole paper rather than in discrete posts of a thread.

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:43 am
by Nyana
SamKR wrote:This is a very useful thread. Are all of these ideas available directly in the website http://measurelessmind.ca/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?

Ñāṇa, is your paper "Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas" completed and available online?
The most recent versions are available on the Samādhikkhandha section of the Measureless Mind website.

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:36 am
by Sylvester
Ñāṇa wrote:For anyone interested in the jhāna related pericopes found in the suttas, here is what the commentary on the Sāmaññaphala Sutta has to offer for the following passage pertaining to the first jhāna:
  • He drenches, steeps, fills, and permeates this very body with the joy and pleasure born of seclusion so that there is no part of his whole body that is not permeated by joy and pleasure born of seclusion.
The commentary explains:
  • This very body: this body born of action [i.e. born of kamma]. He drenches: he moistens, he extends joy and pleasure everywhere. Steeps: to flow all over. Fills: like filling a bellows with air. Permeates: to touch all over.

    His whole body: in this monk's body, with all its parts, in the place where acquired [form] continuity occurs there is not even the smallest part consisting of skin, flesh, and blood that is not permeated with the pleasure of the first jhāna.
One wonders what the Commentators had in mind with the karajakāya/body born of action. Were they thinking of just the physical body, or the karajakāya in AN 10.5.1.9? There, the discussion is on kamma performed by the karajakāya being neutralised by the brahmaviharas. It looks like karajakāya in AN 10.5.1.9 is not limited to the physical body, but the kāyā/collections of body, speech and mind. That sutta discusses karajakāyena, the instrumental plural of karajakāya.

I wonder too why the Commentators did not take a position on whether abhisandeti parisandeti paripūreti parippharati (drenches, steeps, fills, permeates) involves cognising and feeling that Jhanic pleasure with the skin. But then again, they would have been constrained by the bar in MN 43 against the body feeling and being conscious of otherworldy pleasure.

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:44 am
by Assaji
Sylvester wrote:One wonders what the Commentators had in mind with the karajakāya/body born of action.


It's simply body and kamma http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:34 am
by Sylvester
Dmytro wrote:
Sylvester wrote:One wonders what the Commentators had in mind with the karajakāya/body born of action.


It's simply body and kamma http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hi Dmytro

Are you parsing karajakāya as a dvanda compound into body + kamma? How do we deal with the -ja then?

I can't see how a dvanda would work in resolving the karajakāyā in -
yaṃ kho me idaṃ kiñci pubbe iminā karajakāyena pāpakammaṃ kataṃ
It looks like it should be resolved as a tappurisa. Even SN 35.145 above suggests that mano/mind counts as purāṇa kamma (old kamma)

If I may trouble you, what do you think about the verbs abhisandeti parisandeti paripūreti parippharati in the Jhana pericope? Are they under the control of the agent?

Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:36 am
by Assaji
Hi Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:Are you parsing karajakāya as a dvanda compound into body + kamma?
No. It's just, as the Kamma sutta indicates, the body can be seen as the old kamma, so it is a product of kamma, born from actions (kamma).
If I may trouble you, what do you think about the verbs abhisandeti parisandeti paripūreti parippharati in the Jhana pericope? Are they under the control of the agent?
Yes, "he drenches, steeps, fills, and permeates".

On the other hand, it can be described as "In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:namaste: