Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Hi Geoff

Thank you- I appreciate your efforts.

I would like to share my personal opinion and experience on vitakka vicara:

"But what are bodily fabrications? What are verbal fabrications? What are mental fabrications?"
"In-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. Directed thought (vitakka) & evaluation (vicara) are verbal fabrications. Perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications." - MN44

When one practices mastery of jhana it is possible to absorb into these factors individually to see what they are. It is very difficult (other than piti, sukha and samadhi) to distinguish out vitakka vicara while they were mixed in together with the rest of the jhana factors. Experientially of vitakka vicara was more in line with what the above sutta said. Vitakka and vicara was more to do with verbal thought. ie it is not verbal though itself but to do with a fabrication, a preverbal mental 'movement' which was present in the first jhana. The feel of Vitakka was like a a racer perched on his starting blocks, while vicara was more like a brook lazily bubbling in this direction and that ready to explore.

Subsequently I have not found it necessary to look beyond this experience and this sutta to explain what it is.

with metta

RYB

Hey there Retro,

In my humble opinion you're putting the cart before the horse here when you try to go from 4 to 13. The reason I think so is that, in the process of overcoming hindrances in the first four steps you will learn a great deal about your mind, and about inconsistency. You need not run off prematurely to another exercise in order to observe this, as anicca is evident from the earliest stages to the last.

If you focus on those first four, looking for ways to overcome this hindrance or that, then you will eventually overcome them. When you do, you allow yourself a mental 'pat on the back', and feel good about your accomplishment. This can lead nicely into joy which, when attended to along with steady focus on the breath, becomes stronger. The whole experience becomes very pleasant, and you can relax into it.

Now, you say that you don't get much time to meditate so you try to get the important work done. That is a trouble I can appreciate. But I don't think that focusing on samatha is a waste, nor do I think you would be commended by the teacher for trying to jump over the intermediate steps. If you practice all the steps in order each time you meditate, then you will become more adept at them. So what might initially take 40 minutes will eventually take 20, or even 10-15. Then you will have a pleasant practice, the mere thought of which makes you want to go and sit.

You will also be in a much better place to observe anicca, but on a more subtle level than just that you get while contending with the arising and passing away of the hindrances. And no, I seldom sit more than 40 to 50 minutes.

So seriously, don't go putting the cart before the horse.

And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by developing? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, develops mindfulness as a factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in letting go. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening... persistence as a factor for Awakening... rapture as a factor for Awakening... serenity as a factor for Awakening... concentration as a factor for Awakening... equanimity as a factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in letting go. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to develop these qualities do not arise for him when he develops them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by developing.

MN 2

At such times, monks, as the mind is sluggish, that is the wrong time to cultivate the enlightenment-factor[1] of tranquillity, the enlightenment-factor of concentration, the enlightenment-factor of equanimity. What is the reason? A sluggish mind is hard to arouse by these factors.

...

"But, monks, when the mind is sluggish, that is the right time to cultivate the enlightenment-factor of investigation-of-states, the enlightenment-factor of energy, the enlightenment-factor of rapture.[2] What is the reason? A sluggish mind is easy to arouse by these factors.

...

"Monks, when the mind is agitated,[3] that is the wrong time to cultivate the enlightenment-factors of investigation-of-states, of energy, of rapture. Why? An agitated mind is hard to calm through these factors.

...

"When the mind is agitated, that is the right time to cultivate the enlightenment-factors of tranquillity, concentration, equanimity. Why? Because an agitated mind is easy to calm[4] through these factors.
...

"But as for mindfulness, monks, I declare that it is always useful."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is surprising to me how often we talk meditation without talking the seven factors. I wonder why that is, as I have found contemplation on the seven factors to be immensely useful to me at all points in my practice.

I'll give an example from my own practice: suppose I sit down and find that I'm restless. The first thing I do is relax a little bit, listen to the sounds of my room, or look at the Buddha rupa. Then I take up my object and really focus on it, without much concern for how comfortable my focus (concentration). I do this in order to drive a little 'wedge' into my run away thought process. So, after a few minutes I back off on that intense concentration and observe that my mind can now relax somewhat with the object without running off to those other thoughts. I notice that my mind is then more peaceful than before (ie, a still mind is better than a busy one), so I focus on the sense of peacefulness connected with my object (tranquility). As I do that for a while the last concerns for my previous line of though falls away. Then I turn my attention to the specific qualities of my object and begin to analyze it in anyway that seems appropriate.. in the case of breath mediation I will sometimes analyze the length, if that property is clear and smooth. Or, if the breath is rough I watch it and observe the bumps and hitches that might occur. This is 'investigation-of-states'. By taking up this analysis I prevent that tranquility from turning into mental dullness and sloth. As I analyze the breaths features this opens a nice little door way into experiencing the larger body, as the breath affects the body quite substantially.

As I analyze my object there becomes a sense of momentum, of energy. True, this energy was also present in my initial concentration, but now it seems qualitatively different. Since my mind is nicely balanced it becomes pretty easy to enjoy the experience and reflect on the change that has occurred in my mind. This usually yields a significant sense of joy and satisfaction to me (rapture).

In order to do all these things I need mindfulness and equanimity. That is, I have to recognize that all things come about by cause and effect, not by hope and craving. Second, I have to recall the purpose of balancing my mind: clarity of vision. The pleasure and such is a part or it, but not the goal. But as the meditation deepens this equanimity becomes more all encompassing, to the point that the bodily experience changes into a sense of singular 'present' and 'calm'.

That's the Sutta that made me want to read the Samyutta Nikaya.

In my humble opinion you're putting the cart before the horse here when you try to go from 4 to 13.

Buddhadasa actually recommended this way of practice as 'The Short Cut Method for Ordinary People'.

The essence of this method is to concentrate the mind adequately, just enough, which any ordinary person can do, and then take that concentrated citta to observe aniccam-dukkham-anatta - the three characteristics of being - until realizing sunyata and tathata...They will get the full-scale result of extinguishing dukkha,...So make the mind sufficiently concentrated, then go examine aniccam-dukkham-anatta. Just practice the first tetrad of Anapanasati sufficiently then practice the fourth tetrad sufficiently. That is all! Sufficient is not a lot, nor is it complete, but it is good enough. This is the short cut for ordinary people.

http://buddhasociety.com/online-books/a ... ikkhu-1-11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

bodom wrote:

In my humble opinion you're putting the cart before the horse here when you try to go from 4 to 13.

Buddhadasa actually recommended this way of practice as 'The Short Cut Method for Ordinary People'.

Sure, but is it Jhana? The purport of this thread is about jhana, and jhana makes the spiritual path easier and more pleasant. The hitch here is that jhana takes time to develop, and requires a much broader view of your practice than just the hour in which you sit.

I point this out because Retro has mentioned that he lacks time for meditation and that he is drowsy. Since I too lack time to meditate and am usually drowsy when I start, I can appreciate his problem. But, by trying to short cut the suppression of the hindrances he also cuts off the rewarding rapture and pleasure. So he's missing out on the learning opportunities that suppression trains a person in, and he's missing out on the factors that makes a long term meditation practice easier to maintain.

Sure, but is it Jhana?

Sure, why not? Buddhadasa is only saying attaining all four jhana's is not necessary before turning to insight.

bodom wrote:

Sure, but is it Jhana?

Sure, why not? Buddhadasa is only saying attaining all four jhana's is not necessary before turning to insight.

If this is the method, that you practice the first four steps then jump to the 13th, then where does rapture and pleasure come in? If they remain absent, then have you attained even the first jhana?

If this is the method, that you practice the first four steps then jump to the 13th, then where does rapture and pleasure come in? If they remain absent, then have you attained even the first jhana?

Im really not sure what your point is?

If you practice the first four steps, they will naturally lead to the first jhana which already has as factors 'rapture and happiness born of seclusion.' (M.i,1818; Vbh.245)

bodom wrote:

If this is the method, that you practice the first four steps then jump to the 13th, then where does rapture and pleasure come in? If they remain absent, then have you attained even the first jhana?

Im really not sure what your point is?

If you practice the first four steps, they will naturally lead to the first jhana which already has as factors 'rapture and happiness born of seclusion.' (M.i,1818; Vbh.245)

"[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.'

To get to this stage requires the cultivation of the first four steps, but does also require an additional intention -- it requires practice. Hence the "He trains himself" at the beginning of the clause.

If the meditator's attention has switched to some other concern it seems doubtful to me that they would take the right steps to induce the jhanic state. As I've said elsewhere, the rapture and pleasure act to stabilize the experience and prevent the re-emergence of the hindrances.

Also, to say that these additional steps, between 5 to 12 inclusive, can be "short cutted" would suggest that they are somewhat superfluous. But I have not found that to be the case at all.

If you wish to interpret all these things differently, than you are certainly welcome to do so.

Also, I cannot check your references because I'm not familiar with the reference system. Perhaps you could provide them?

Also, I cannot check your references because I'm not familiar with the reference system. Perhaps you could provide them?

Majjhima Nikaya 38
Mahatanhasankhayasuttam

"Having thus abandoned these five hindrances, imperfections of the mind that weaken wisdom, quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unwholesome states of mind, he enters and remains in the first Jhana which is filled with rapture and happiness born of seclusion and is accompanied by applied and sustained thinking.

http://www.leighb.com/mn38.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

bodom wrote:

Also, I cannot check your references because I'm not familiar with the reference system. Perhaps you could provide them?

Majjhima Nikaya 38
Mahatanhasankhayasuttam

Thanks.

"Having thus abandoned these five hindrances, imperfections of the mind that weaken wisdom, quite secluded from sense desires, secluded from unwholesome states of mind, he enters and remains in the first Jhana which is filled with rapture and happiness born of seclusion and is accompanied by applied and sustained thinking.

http://www.leighb.com/mn38.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And what does that mean to you, bodom?

And what does that mean to you, bodom?

Outside of personally sitting in the first jhana? Not a whole lot.

bodom wrote:

And what does that mean to you, bodom?

Outside of personally sitting in the first jhana? Not a whole lot.

Please expound in detail what you've stated in brief.

That is, are you saying that the above is a description of one 'personally sitting in the first jhana', or are you saying that you have 'personally' sat in the first jhana? If the second, then I'm especially interested. Did you use the breath, or "Buddho"? And how does the experience unfold?

Inquiring minds would like to know.

Inquiring minds would like to know.

I dont know if I have ever reached jhana. I have definitely had some blissful feelings arise while sitting. Jhana? I wouldn't count on it.

To be honest, Im not all that concerned with gaining this level of concentration, that level of concentration, this jhana, that jhana. I just sit until my mind is free from wandering.

What I meant by 'Outside of personally sitting in the first jhana? Not a whole lot.' is that all the descriptions of jhana in the suttas are nothing but words on paper, and at present are not a concern to me and my practice.

The only reason I posted was because I was asked by a member to participate in the thread, and I found your post to retro a good jumping in point. From experience, the best way I have found for me is as Buddhadasa recommended, I practice until my mind is calm and then turn to insight. Do I label this calm jhana? No. No need as I see it.