Questions about the first jhana

Discussion of Samatha bhavana and Jhana bhavana.

Re: Questions about the first jhana

Postby bodom » Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:27 pm

I would assume that people here understand how the forum software works. I have no control over the way the "quote" mechanism in the forum software works. It is programmedto say "wrote".


You are "assuming" again because obviously I dont know how the software works! :tongue:

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Questions about the first jhana

Postby Ytrog » Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:21 pm

bodom wrote:
I would assume that people here understand how the forum software works. I have no control over the way the "quote" mechanism in the forum software works. It is programmedto say "wrote".


You are "assuming" again because obviously I dont know how the software works! :tongue:

:anjali:


Even if you hand-type the BBCode it will say "wrote":

ytrog wrote:Even if you hand-type the BBCode it will say "wrote"


The only exception is off-course if you leave the one you quote out. ;)
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Re: Questions about the first jhana

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:52 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Do we characterize jhana by all these "is there" things at once? As it stands, it reads that way. What does "They don't die" mean? Does it mean they don't change?

All of the mental factors of any jhāna occur concurrently (i.e. sahajāta). These mental factors don't pass away as long as one remains in that particular jhāna. This doesn't mean that these mental factors are not subject to alteration while persisting (ṭhitassa aññathatta). Alteration while persisting is common to all fabrications (saṅkhāra-s).
Yes. I know all that - thank you for drawing it out -, but the quote really is not accurate to all that. It is a confused and confusing quote.

Lovingfriendliness is there. Compassion is there.
The pont is, not necessarily. It depends. There is a bit of an over-selling going on here, which could be confusing and misleading.

Also, They don't die is simply unclear, as stated in the context of of the paragraph quoted.

This is the only point I am making, which does not need to be litigated.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Questions about the first jhana

Postby IanAnd » Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:22 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Lovingfriendliness is there. Compassion is there.
The point is, not necessarily. It depends. There is a bit of an over-selling going on here, which could be confusing and misleading.

Well, of course, being a stickler for particulars, you are correct. However, the quote is transcribed from the talk in the video. I don't think Bhante Gunaratana necessarily meant to imply that this is always the case. He was just making a point about the dynamism of absorption and various mental factors being possibly present. That's all. And that is the context of his statement.

tiltbillings wrote:Also, They don't die is simply unclear, as stated in the context of the paragraph quoted.

Did you bother to watch the video? Perhaps that might clear it up for you. The context is right there if you'll just avail yourself of it. It's not like anything is being hidden. Besides, what's not clear about: "All these are mental factors. They don't die." Meaning, to me, they don't necessarily subside if they have arisen. Bhante is using his own idiom in a language that it not his mother tongue attempting to communicate an idea. Give the guy a break, sheesh!
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
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Re: Questions about the first jhana

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:41 am

IanAnd wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Lovingfriendliness is there. Compassion is there.
The point is, not necessarily. It depends. There is a bit of an over-selling going on here, which could be confusing and misleading.

Well, of course, being a stickler for particulars, you are correct. However, the quote is transcribed from the talk in the video. I don't think Bhante Gunaratana necessarily meant to imply that this is always the case. He was just making a point about the dynamism of absorption and various mental factors being possibly present. That's all. And that is the context of his statement.
You did not indentify this as coming from the videos. Not everyone has time or the connexion speed to watch videos.

tiltbillings wrote:Also, They don't die is simply unclear, as stated in the context of the paragraph quoted.
Did you bother to watch the video?
Some people do not have a great deal of time. Basically, you are telling us that the context of the quote was missing from the quote.

Give the guy a break, sheesh!
Apparently the problem is not the good monk, but your selective quoting of the good monk.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Questions about the first jhana

Postby 5heaps » Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:11 pm

Individual wrote:What do they say about cultivating and maintaining the first jhana, in Vipassana and Suttanta?
just as when signs appear when training shamata so too do signs appear when training jhana. just as the signs of shamata are signs of distaste for gross and subtle forms of dullness and agitation, the signs for 1st jhana are signs of the distaste of desire realm states of mind. in other words to main thrust is realistic renunciation free of confusion
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