Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

where in the suttas are kasinas described? As described in the vishudhimagga?

The Kasinas are enumerated in AN 10:29.

The following is Nyanatiloka's translation from The Buddhas Path to Deliverance:

There are ten kasina spheres, O monks. And which are these?

Herein someone perceives earth as his kasina, above, below, round about, undivided, without bounds.
Again, someone perceives water as his kasina...fire...wind...blue...yellow...red...white...space...consciousness,
above, below, round about, undivided, without bounds.

These are the ten kasina spheres, O monks. It is considered as the highest of these kasina spheres, however,
for someone to perceive consciousness as his kasina, above, below, round about, undivided, without bounds.

There are beings with such perception, O monks. But also regarding the beings with such perception, there
my be noticed impermanence and change. Understanding thus, O monks, the wise noble disciple turns away from it.
And turning away from it he becomes detached from the highest, how much more so from lower things.

http://books.google.com/books?id=kLQzuaw3xUYC" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I highly recommend checking the link above as Nyanatiloka provides other sutta sources and additional notes
on the practice of the kasina meditations.

thank you bodom! This was exactly what i wanted. Metta

Not quite often, ain't it?

I don't get, why this object of meditation is rarely found in the suttas but stressed that much in the VM and takes much space in meditation teaching.

If it was that meaningfull as it is treated today, why did the Buddha did not teach it more often, e.g. like anapanasati or metta?

Just wondering...



Be Well
:) _()_

The ten Kasisnas are also in, at least, MN 77 http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... yi-e1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My view is that the Suttas are very light on specific meditation instructions. These techniques were taught by personal instruction (as today - see the sutta reference below), and it is likely that the various concentration techniques were common knowledge among various sects at the time. Even with regard to the Ananpanasati Sutta, which is by far the most detailed sutta in terms of technique there are long threads here discussing exactly how one might implement it, and whole books by a variety of modern teachers with quite different interpretations of how to use that Sutta in practice.

This lack of specifics in technique is, perhaps, because it's not the specific technique that is important, but the result. So it is important to measure one's experience against suttas describing right concentration, mindfulness etc, but not so important to worry about which particular object one used for concentration (for example) and whether that object was one that the Buddha taught.

Given suttas such as: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; where the Buddha tells his followers to ask someone skilled in tranquillity and/or insight for specific instructions, my view is that searching for detailed instructions on such matters in the suttas is likely to be a futile exercise.


Mike

mikenz66 wrote:Actually, it's also in some of the MN Suttas. I'll try to find the reference later.

My view is that the Suttas are very light on specific instructions. These techniques were taught by personal instruction (as today - see the sutta reference below), and it is likely that the various concentration techniques were common knowledge among various sects at the time. Even with regard to the Ananpanasati Sutta, which is by far the most detailed sutta in terms of technique there are long threads here discussing exactly how one might implement it, and whole books by a variety of modern teachers with quite different interpretations of how to use that Sutta in practice.

This lack of specifics in technique is, perhaps, because it's not the specific technique that is important, but the result. So it is important to measure one's experience against suttas describing right concentration, mindfulness etc, but not so important to worry about which particular object one used for concentration (for example) and whether that object was one that the Buddha taught.

Given suttas such as: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; where the Buddha tells his followers to ask someone skilled in tranquillity and/or insight for specific instructions, my view is that searching for detailed instructions on such matters in the suttas is likely to be a futile exercise.


Mike

its mentioned in MN77. From the suttas it seems the Buddha stressed anapanasati to enter the jhanas. Rarely does he mention the kasinas. Yet the VM gives a lengthy explaination of the kasinas as objects for meditation.

dharmaamrita wrote: From the suttas it seems the Buddha stressed anapanasati to enter the jhanas. Rarely does he mention the kasinas. Yet the VM gives a lengthy explaination of the kasinas as objects for meditation.

It would be interesting to do some counting, but my impression is that in most cases there is no mention of technique at all.

In numerous suttas (e.g. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html)we have this:

"Having abandoned these five hindrances — imperfections of awareness that weaken discernment — then, quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation.

And, by the way, in the MN version of the Anapanasati Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; there is a nice description of how the different senior Bhikkhus were instructing various numbers of junior Bhikkhus:

On that occasion the elder monks were teaching & instructing. Some elder monks were teaching & instructing ten monks, some were teaching & instructing twenty monks, some were teaching & instructing thirty monks, some were teaching & instructing forty monks. The new monks, being taught & instructed by the elder monks, were discerning grand, successive distinctions.

But, of course, no mention of exactly how they were teaching...


Mike

well i havent advanced much in my training and im from a place lacking a buddhist teacher. So the suttas provide me with most help. Does it mean perhaps that when one overcomes the 5 hindrances and withdraws completely from sensual lust then one enters the first jhana automaticly through practice of everyday mindfulness and vipassana without using kasinas. Its unfortunate the suttas dont expound the actual practice of meditation in a lot of detail.

Greetings,

I think there's a certain degree of pragmatism involved to the extent that if a meditation 'technique' can achieve the intended aims in relation to jhana and samadhi, it wouldn't matter if it were a case of sitting cross-legged or sitting on one's head.

I'd be very surprised if kasinas didn't pre-date the Buddha, and if the Buddha saw that certain ascetics were already proficient in achieving jhana through this method, it hard to see why he would then turn around and go, "No, actually, that method is no good... you must do this way instead". Anapanasati, kasina, sitting on your head.... so long as there could be Right Samadhi when the technique was conjoined with Right View, I don't think there would have been a problem.

The comparative lack of references in the Sutta Pitaka though would presumably indicate though that it wasn't the Buddha's 'technique of choice'.

Metta,
Retro.

Hi Retro

The jhanas actually predate the Buddha. In the Noble Search, the Buddha talks of his two teachers who taught him the seventh and eighth jhanas. Also, anapana-sati predated the Buddha. In another sutta, I don't recall which one, the Buddha talks of attending a festival when he was either four or six and then sitting under a tree, started observing respiration and experienced the first jhana.
kind regards

Ben

retrofuturist wrote:The comparative lack of references in the Sutta Pitaka though would presumably indicate though that it wasn't the Buddha's 'technique of choice'

Yes the Buddha favored anapanasati more than any other technique it seems from reading the sutta's. He often went off on solitary retreats to practice mindfulness of breathing. In the Samyutta Nikaya,the Buddha himself called Anapanasati the "Dwelling of the Tathagata".

bodom wrote:

retrofuturist wrote:The comparative lack of references in the Sutta Pitaka though would presumably indicate though that it wasn't the Buddha's 'technique of choice'

Yes the Buddha favored anapanasati more than any other technique it seems from reading the sutta's. He often went off on solitary retreats to practice mindfulness of breathing. In the Samyutta Nikaya,the Buddha himself called Anapanasati the "Dwelling of the Tathagata".

The word that includes kasiṇa are mentioned about 352 times in the Tipiṭaka.
ānāpāna is mentioned 183 times in the Tipiṭaka.

(I did e-search for *kasiṇ* and *ānāpāna* in Tipiṭaka )

So, it is not so rare. The only thing is that instructions for them seem to be somewhat lacking in the suttas. But the more precise instructions could have been explained in the commentaries, or it was something a practitioner had to figure out by himself. The most important is the purpose that one uses them for. Awakening is not a matter of dialing in correct ritual actions to create some magical effect. It is about fading away of all craving (taṇhā). Since each of us have our own internal and external conditions, the exact specifics for each of us may differ. So there may not be "one-size-fits-all" sort of teaching. Maybe each of us has to use our own ingenuity to find a specific application that works for us.

Alex123 wrote: The word that includes kasiṇa are mentioned about 352 times in the Tipiṭaka.
ānāpāna is mentioned 183 times in the Tipiṭaka.

I would wonder how many of each entry is in each pitaka, though.

Kenshou wrote:

Alex123 wrote: The word that includes kasiṇa are mentioned about 352 times in the Tipiṭaka.
ānāpāna is mentioned 183 times in the Tipiṭaka.

I would wonder how many of each entry is in each pitaka, though.

It's a good point.

Hello,
I suppose a kind of meditation somewhat analogous to what Buddhaghosa describes is in Culasunnata sutta - The lesser sutta about voidness. Buddha says there:

"Further, Ananda, the monk — not attending to the perception of human being, not attending to the perception of wilderness — attends to the singleness based on the perception of earth. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of earth. Just as a bull's hide is stretched free from wrinkles with a hundred stakes, even so — without attending to all the ridges & hollows, the river ravines, the tracts of stumps & thorns, the craggy irregularities of this earth — he attends to the singleness based on the perception of earth. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its perception of earth.

AFAIK according to buddhist cosmology the Earth is flat and of sircle form.
http://www.buddhisme-videnskab.dk/files ... mology.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So here the attention is to this great Earth circle. At the next stage:

"Further, Ananda, the monk — not attending to the perception of wilderness, not attending to the perception of earth — attends to the singleness based on the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space.

And what do we see in Visuddhimagga? First a meditator attends to a sircle of clay (representing earth element) I suppose about the size of a plate. Then he attends to the image of such a sircle in his mind.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits061.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So Buddhagosa writes about contemplating a hand-made circle and Buddha speaks of contemplating the circle of Earth. Really there are no details about what is meant by earth in the sutta, so "the circle of Earth" is my assumption.