First Jhana...a description

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
daverupa
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by daverupa »

Zom wrote:But this is not a discursive thinking about the object or thinking on this or that theme.
It is vitakka and vicara, but no it is not papanca.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
chownah
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by chownah »

Zom,(and everyone)
You wrote:
"That is I stand for that idea of completely silent but fully aware mind in the jhana. "
I think this is interesting. To say the mind is silent can be taken to mean that there is no auditory thought object arising....but it can also be taken as a metaphor for a mind that is not actively providing content but rather observing some content that is arising and is simply observed by the mind....or I suppose it could mean something somewhere between or similar to these two. For me the exact intended meaning of a completely silent mind is not understood also because you have coupled it with the mind simultaneously being fully aware....so if we are ruling out certain thoughts (auditory for example) we must still have something for the mind to be fully aware of...I guess.

This question about what the mind is fully aware of also arises from this excerpt from the link you provided in the "Fate of Jhana Practicioners" thread:
==========================
MAJJHIMA NIKâYA II
II. 2. 4. Mahàmàlunkhyaputtasuttaü
(64) The Major Discourse to Venerable Malunkhyaputta

http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ta-e1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"....................
ânanda, what is the path and method, to dispel the lower bonds of the sensual world? ânanda, the bhikkhu secluding the mind thoroughly, by dispelling things of demerit, removes all bodily transgressions that bring remorse. Then secluding the mind, from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. Established in it he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self. Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction*1). With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things. He arises spontaneously, with the destruction of the five lower bonds, of the sensual world, not to proceed. ânanda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds of the sensual world.
.............."
=======================
It seems like there is alot of reflecting and turning of the mind and the mind coming to this or that etc. I agree with the basic idea I get from your statement that the mind is silent during jhana but it is difficult for me to come up with some idea about just what the mind is doing and whether it is an active doing or a passive doing (is "passive doing" an oxymoron?) or just what the limits would be without "breaking" jhana.

Also, seems like this description is of two parts...first is the secluding of the mind....and then there is the reflecting on stuff....I interpret this as being "meditation" followed by "contemplation".....so....is the stuff in the meditation part what happens "in" jhana or is it just the stuff to "attain" jhana?...........it's like watching a dvd....to watch a dvd you have to put the dvd into the player....but putting the dvd into the player is not watching a dvd...it is only the preparation for watching the dvd.........so...........is the "meditation" part only the preparation for jhana and it is actually the "contemplation" part that is jhana?...or is it both?....or is there no practical reason for me to ask this question....

chownah
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kirk5a
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by kirk5a »

chownah wrote:so if we are ruling out certain thoughts (auditory for example) we must still have something for the mind to be fully aware of...I guess.
Consider it like this:
THE METHOD OF DEVELOPING BHAVANA

One begins with the body posture that is comfortable whether standing, walking, sitting or lying down, whatever is convenient. One should then make oneself fully aware with just bare awareness, not trying to be aware of "something", just knowing itself alone. One then keeps the citta there continuously, just in bare awareness. There is no need to be discursive or analytical. Don't force it but also don't let the citta be free to follow events.
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... _Atulo.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
chownah
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by chownah »

kirk5a wrote:
chownah wrote:so if we are ruling out certain thoughts (auditory for example) we must still have something for the mind to be fully aware of...I guess.
Consider it like this:
THE METHOD OF DEVELOPING BHAVANA

One begins with the body posture that is comfortable whether standing, walking, sitting or lying down, whatever is convenient. One should then make oneself fully aware with just bare awareness, not trying to be aware of "something", just knowing itself alone. One then keeps the citta there continuously, just in bare awareness. There is no need to be discursive or analytical. Don't force it but also don't let the citta be free to follow events.
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... _Atulo.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I looked at the link and frankly the approach shown (after only a cursory look, without thorough examination) looks like something I am not interested in spending too much time studying....but setting that aside and focusing on the small portion you have reproduced here I guess you are saying to consider it to be similar to one of the possibilities I mentioned above: " a mind that is not actively providing content but rather observing some content that is arising and is simply observed by the mind"....I guess....is this correct? Also, what you have suggested seems the have possible applicability to the first part of the practice....that is to say the part of the practice I call "secluding the mind" or "meditation" or that I have described as possibly "preparation for jhana".....are you suggesting that the text you have given is also a description of the second part which I have called "reflecting on stuff" or "contemplation" ? I can see the text applying to the first part but the description of the second part as given in the text I provided seems way to active in its description to be consistent with what you have provided.
What I have written seems really hard to follow...I'll rephrase it.....:
Does this:
"One should then make oneself fully aware with just bare awareness, not trying to be aware of "something", just knowing itself alone. "
Apply to this:
"...first is the secluding of the mind "
and/or does it apply to this:
" and then there is the reflecting on stuff."
Seems to me it can reasonably be thought to apply to secluding of the mind but it does not seem like it can reasonably be thought to apply to the reflecting on stuff part.
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kirk5a
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by kirk5a »

chownah wrote: Does this:
"One should then make oneself fully aware with just bare awareness, not trying to be aware of "something", just knowing itself alone. "
Apply to this:
"...first is the secluding of the mind "
and/or does it apply to this:
" and then there is the reflecting on stuff."
Seems to me it can reasonably be thought to apply to secluding of the mind but it does not seem like it can reasonably be thought to apply to the reflecting on stuff part.
chownah
I was responding to your earlier wondering about the meaning of "completely silent but fully aware mind" - how it is the mind can be aware without focusing on something. So I thought perhaps Ajahn Dun's instructions would clarify. I'm not sure it's helpful to try to draw a point to point comparison between those instructions and the ones you quoted from that sutta.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Cittasanto
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Re: First Jhana...a description

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I was sort of correct I remembered it was speech not movement!
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SN36.11 wrote:"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications. When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have ceased. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has ceased.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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chownah
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by chownah »

Manapa wrote:I was sort of correct I remembered it was speech not movement!
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SN36.11 wrote:"And I have also taught the step-by-step cessation of fabrications. When one has attained the first jhāna, speech has ceased. When one has attained the second jhāna, directed thought & evaluation have ceased. When one has attained the third jhāna, rapture has ceased. When one has attained the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breathing has ceased.
Thanks for taking the time and effort to follow up on this. This sutta is interesting in that it seems to indicate that throughout the first jhana there is directed thought and evaluation because indicates that these cease upon attaining second jhana.
Although there are many who tend to minimize the realms of directed thought and evaluation while in first jhana it does seem that there are some references that seem to indicate that it might be more active than some describe....of course I'm wanting first jhana to be possible during walking meditation so I have a bias to accept any shred of evidence which points that way and to minimize things that go contrary to it....
It's interesting that the reference says that in fourth jhana the in and out breathing has ceased.....I'm wondering if this is the usual comment on fourth jhana...I've never heard of this before.
Thanks again for the followup...
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by Cittasanto »

Venerable Vimalaramsi reckons you can, http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; but I have doubts that it could be called Jhana proper!

it is easy to forget that if the factors for the 1st jhana are present then their is a valid reason to call it the first Jhana, but is it really what jhana is or just a designation you are giving to it?

either way you can change the name if you later decide it is inaccurate, and personally I do have doubts but you need to see if the factors are there yourself and decide whether or not it is appropriate to call them jhana or not.

I would recommend you to read 'The experiance of Samadhi' by richard shankman, it is a very thorough book on the subject and covers both sutta and visudhimagga 'methods' and includs interviews with some very well knows teachers, however, if you know and trust a teacher upon the list in the link above, follow their instructions and please not because they agree with you on this (at this stage). if you know the teachings and respect Thanissaro Bhikkhu thus have faith in him, follow it try to get in contact with him, etc or one of the other teachers, but only because you know of and trust in them first, second would be you can have easier contact with them, and definitely last is that they agree with you on this at this stage.and there are many more teachers who teach Jhana not just those on the list, one may live very close to you.

BTW some say you can hear sounds and others say you definitely cant hear anything in any Jhana, but who are we to listen to? our experience!
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Prasadachitta
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access concentration?

Post by Prasadachitta »

Hi All,

Im wondering if there is a Sutta source for the state which Manapa mentions called "access concentration". I am aware of a whole spectrum of deepening meditative absorption. In my experience it is not a two dimensional progression because many positive factors progress and recede in varying degrees. This is why I ask. If there is some description of a state which is approaching jhana but discerned from it in a helpful manner by the Buddha as recorded in the Suttas, then it might help me navigate my progression into states conducive to awakening.


Thanks

Prasadachitta
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
chownah
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by chownah »

Manapa,
Thanks for the link....I went there and found a reference to MN111 which I found at accesstoinsight and I found this:
""There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him."

This seems to indicate that there can be a variety of mental activities happening within the first jhana....including contact, feeling, perception, and intention. It seems from this that walking meditation might be possible while in first jhana as pretty much all that is required for walking seems to be included.....I'm wondering if many people consider that the conditions necessary for entering first jhana to be what all that is possible while in jhana....I'm starting to be of the view that the conditions for entering are more restrictive but once attained it can be maintained through quite a bit of mental activity....but of course the mind must be very focused so the quality of the mental activity would be quite different from what we do in our usual mode of being.
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Re: access concentration?

Post by Cittasanto »

Prasadachitta wrote:Hi All,

Im wondering if there is a Sutta source for the state which Manapa mentions called "access concentration". I am aware of a whole spectrum of deepening meditative absorption. In my experience it is not a two dimensional progression because many positive factors progress and recede in varying degrees. This is why I ask. If there is some description of a state which is approaching jhana but discerned from it in a helpful manner by the Buddha as recorded in the Suttas, then it might help me navigate my progression into states conducive to awakening.


Thanks

Prasadachitta
They are from the commentaries, but they have a use in describing pre-jhana stages, so I use them in that regard, but they can be infered to a degree as in the factors are present or the concentration is strong but it is not quite jhana, or it is samadhi (as in the training/forest monastic use of the term).
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by Cittasanto »

chownah wrote:Manapa,
Thanks for the link....I went there and found a reference to MN111 which I found at accesstoinsight and I found this:
""There was the case where Sariputta — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities — entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him."

This seems to indicate that there can be a variety of mental activities happening within the first jhana....including contact, feeling, perception, and intention. It seems from this that walking meditation might be possible while in first jhana as pretty much all that is required for walking seems to be included.....I'm wondering if many people consider that the conditions necessary for entering first jhana to be what all that is possible while in jhana....I'm starting to be of the view that the conditions for entering are more restrictive but once attained it can be maintained through quite a bit of mental activity....but of course the mind must be very focused so the quality of the mental activity would be quite different from what we do in our usual mode of being.
chownah
Hi Chownah,
mental activities or mental qualities, there is a difference!
I would be reluctant to say Jhana and walking meditation are compatible as I certainly don't know of any textual reference to it and all the descriptions describe sitting practice, but I maybe wrong.

but does it matter what you call the state if you are finding the state useful in developing upon the path?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
chownah
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by chownah »

Manapa wrote: Hi Chownah,
mental activities or mental qualities, there is a difference!
I would be reluctant to say Jhana and walking meditation are compatible as I certainly don't know of any textual reference to it and all the descriptions describe sitting practice, but I maybe wrong.

but does it matter what you call the state if you are finding the state useful in developing upon the path?
Manapa,
There is a difference in modern Engish betweent qualities and activities....it's hard to know just where the description of first jhana falls with respect to them....I think the bias for translators and interpretors has been to use the more passive term in that traditionally most meditators do it very passively while on the cushion....consider that although it calls them "qualities" it indicates that they "arise": "Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,[2] desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose ".........doesn't it seem that if directed thought, evaluatin, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence and mindfulness can arise then something besides passively sitting might provide the setting for the arising?....it seems to me that in first jhana some of these are unlikely to arise in isolation...like feeling without contact or perception without contact and feeling....etc. Of course I might be completely wrong about this but it does look like alot more is happening in first jhana than what many people suggest...I'm getting the idea that many people take the method for entering first jhana to be its entirety whereas the sutta seems to indicate that after entering first jhana the mind gets fairly busy.....

Believe me, I am not WORRIED about whether any meditative experience is jhana or not....the tradition I come from practices sitting meditation (mosty breathing meditation)for the purpose of supporting off cushion meditative practice....I have found the practice very effective in bringing meditative and contemplative practice right into daily life but it takes a long time before this happens (years)....most of my introspective practice that I do has developed from that practice....the sitting breath meditation is my main connection to Buddhist meditative practice in that it is pretty much identical to what many Buddhist teachers teach. My mindfulness and insight practice comes from mostly off the cushion so it may be helpful for me if I can make some connections between what I experience and what the Buddha teaches. Other things the Buddha teaches are very familiar to me in that pretty much identical concepts were taught before...although they were taught in different ways and forms than what the Buddha is recorded to have taught....I see no real disonance between what the Buddha seems to have taught and what I have been taught.
Anyway....I am not overly concerned about the label "jhana" and am certainly not clinging to "jhana"...I'm just trying to make connections to help me progress on the path.....
chownah
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Re: First Jhana...a description

Post by pegembara »

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of nothingness — the perception of the dimension of nothingness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.[4]

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sorry for a digression from the OP.

Seems that all the jhana levels starting from the 1st level of form to the formless dimension of nothingness, there is awareness/knowing of arising & passing away ie. vipassana element. The remaining levels are not accompanied by this awareness. It is only after emerging from these states that the meditator reflects on the rise & fall phenomena.

Also that attaining the cessation of feeling & perception [nirodha samapatti] is synonymous to attaining nibbana (He discerned that 'There is no further escape).
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: access concentration?

Post by Prasadachitta »

Manapa wrote:
They are from the commentaries, but they have a use in describing pre-jhana stages, so I use them in that regard, but they can be infered to a degree as in the factors are present or the concentration is strong but it is not quite jhana, or it is samadhi (as in the training/forest monastic use of the term).
Thanks Manapa,

Can you give or point me to a brief description of what is meant by access concentration? Im interested in any details.

Metta

Prasadachitta
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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