Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

It seems that quite often in the suttas there is a case of a monk going up the ladder of jhana usually to the 4th jhana and then contemplating something, something like the body internally, the body externally, the body both internally and externally for example. (This is for example only and I'm not wanting to discuss the body here unless it is necessary.) My question is whether the 4th jhana is only the first part which consists of the concentration of the mind?...or is the contemplation part which happens after the mind has achieved concentration part of the jhana too?
chownah

Greetings Chownah, is there a specific sutta (and the wording of that sutta) which you would like to refer to?

Ben,
Not particularly. I find the same pattern in many places....first the monk attains jhana (usually the 4th)....and then the monk directs the mind to some contemplation. It seems like that this is a two part thing....the first part is to attain a certain level of concentration and the second part is to direct this concentrated mind towards a contemplation. It seems to me that this patterns exists in alot of places....do you think that it must be taken on a case by case basis? Accesstoinsight won't open for me just now but I think the Satipattana Sutta has this pattern. I have no time for this now and if it seems necessary I will look up a reference later.
chownah

No problems, Chownah.

I believe you attain Jhana then direct it toward insight. On the Bhavana Society's webstie they have an article called "Should you come out of Jhana for Vipassana" or something along those lines. It says one should attain Jhana then direct that concentration to insight.

MN 64 describes contemplation within jhana; one attains to a certain jhana, then contemplates according to the instructions in that sutta.

MN122 has 4th jhana followed by several different actions that could happen while a monk "is dwelling by means of this dwelling"........are all of these actions happening during jhana?....or is the jhana finished and this is all happening post jhana?

A portion of MN122: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"So, Ananda, if a monk should wish, 'May I enter & remain in internal emptiness,' then he should get the mind steadied right within, settled, unified, & concentrated. And how does the monk get the mind steadied right within, settled, unified, & concentrated? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana... the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. That is how a monk gets the mind steadied right within, settled, unified, & concentrated.

"He attends to internal emptiness. While he is attending to internal emptiness, his mind does not take pleasure, find satisfaction, grow steady, or indulge in internal emptiness. When this is the case, he discerns, 'While I am attending to internal emptiness, my mind does not take pleasure, find satisfaction, grow steady, or indulge in internal emptiness.' In this way he is alert there.

"He attends to external emptiness...[2]

"He attends to internal & external emptiness...

"He attends to the imperturbable.[3] While he is attending to the imperturbable, his mind does not take pleasure, find satisfaction, grow steady, or indulge in the imperturbable. When this is the case, he discerns, 'While I am attending to the imperturbable, my mind does not take pleasure, find satisfaction, grow steady, or indulge in the imperturbable.' In this way he is alert there.

"When that is the case, he should get the mind steadied right within, settled, unified, & concentrated in his first theme of concentration.

"He then attends to internal emptiness. While he is attending to internal emptiness, his mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, grows steady, & indulges in internal emptiness. When this is the case, he discerns, 'While I am attending to internal emptiness, my mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, grows steady, & indulges in internal emptiness.' In this way he is alert there.

"He attends to external emptiness...

"He attends to internal & external emptiness...

"He attends to the imperturbable. While he is attending to the imperturbable, his mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, grows steady, & indulges in the imperturbable. When this is the case, he discerns, 'While I am attending to the imperturbable, my mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, grows steady, & indulges in the imperturbable.' In this way he is alert there.

"If, while the monk is dwelling by means of this dwelling, his mind inclines to walking back & forth, he walks back & forth [thinking,] 'While I am walking thus, no covetousness or sadness, no evil, unskillful qualities will take possession of me.' In this way he is alert there.

"If, while he is dwelling by means of this dwelling, his mind inclines to standing... to sitting... to lying down, he lies down, [thinking,] 'While I am lying down thus, no covetousness or sadness, no evil, unskillful qualities will take possession of me.' In this way he is alert there.

"If, while he is dwelling by means of this dwelling, his mind inclines to speaking, he resolves that 'I will not engage in talk that is base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unbeneficial, that does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calm, direct knowledge, self-awakening, or Unbinding — i.e., talk about kings, robbers, & ministers of state; armies, alarms, & battles; food & drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, & scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women & heroes; the gossip of the street & the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity, the creation of the world & of the sea; talk of whether things exist or not.' In this way he is alert there.

"'But,' [he resolves,] 'I will engage in talk that is scrupulous, conducive to release of awareness, and leads exclusively to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calm, direct knowledge, self-awakening, & Unbinding — i.e., talk on modesty, contentment, seclusion, non-entanglement, arousing persistence, virtue, concentration, discernment, release, and the knowledge & vision of release.' In this way he is alert there.

"If, while he is dwelling by means of this dwelling, his mind inclines to thinking, he resolves that 'I will not think thoughts that are base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unbeneficial, that do not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calm, direct knowledge, self-awakening, or Unbinding — i.e., thoughts of sensuality, thoughts of ill will, thoughts of harmfulness.' In this way he is alert there.

"'But,' [he resolves,] 'I will think thoughts that are noble, onward-leading, that lead to the right ending of stress for the person who acts on them — i.e., thoughts of renunciation, thoughts of no ill will, thoughts of harmlessness.' In this way he is alert there.
....................."
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chownah

chownah wrote:are all of these actions happening during jhana?

It seems to me they must:

"So, Ananda, if a monk should wish, 'May I enter & remain in <the contemplations discussed>,' then he should get the mind steadied right within, settled, unified, & concentrated. And how does the monk get the mind steadied right within, settled, unified, & concentrated? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana... the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana..."

daverupa wrote:

chownah wrote:are all of these actions happening during jhana?

It seems to me they must:

Doesn't this seem at odds with what people usually consider about jhana? Here you have someone apparently in 4th jhana who is walking back and forth and talking (presumably) to people....also engaging in discoursive thought ('I will think thoughts that are noble, onward-leading'). I think that this is the most extreme example of a sutta reference which seems to describe a two step process...first step is attaining concentration (which is what I usually thought of as being jhana)....the second step is contemplation (which I usually thought was something different from jhana)....and in this case it seems to even go beyond contemplation...I started this thread because it seemed to me that the jhana part probably ended when the contemplation (or other activities) began but I don't really know. I think that my ideas about jhana are not quite right and need adjusting. I have always been of the opinion that walking meditation was conducive to jhana and discovered that this was contrary to what many people here thought...but now it seems that the scope of what is possible in jhana is much broader than even that.....I guess....I don't know.....all input is appreciated.....
chownah

chownah wrote:Doesn't this seem at odds with what people usually consider about jhana?

Of course. I find the Suttas are often at odds with what people think.

chownah wrote:MN122 has 4th jhana followed by several different actions that could happen while a monk "is dwelling by means of this dwelling"........are all of these actions happening during jhana?....or is the jhana finished and this is all happening post jhana?

A portion of MN122: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"So, Ananda, if a monk should wish, 'May I enter & remain in internal emptiness,'

I do not share your understanding. I think this refers to jhana as a means to enter into emptiness "state" but not to jhana as jhana.

chownah wrote:Doesn't this seem at odds with what people usually consider about jhana? Here you have someone apparently in 4th jhana who is walking back and forth and talking (presumably) to people....

Because it does not refer to jhana but to emptiness "state".


In this sutta there is mention of different kinds of failures/defeats because emptiness "state" does not guard against these when there is lack of discernment/wisdom.
Also I think that MN122 necessarily has to be taken into account in connection with MN121.


kind regards

Greetings,

daverupa wrote:

chownah wrote:Doesn't this seem at odds with what people usually consider about jhana?

Of course. I find the Suttas are often at odds with what people think.

Samatha + Vipassana = Samma Samadhi.



Metta,
Retro.

Generally jhanas and/or form and formless "attainments" may be thought about in two ways:
1. states of absorption
2. transient momentary "phases" or even "momentary events"

Considering the Buddha's teachings I think that only view 2 is appropriate and conducive.


Kind regards

TMingyur,
Are you suggesting that jhana is like a key to a door and once the door is unlocked it is no longer relevant? I'm wondering if this is correct...in the sutta which I referenced its says the monk "enters and remains in" each of the four jhanas...."remains" seems to be suggesting that it is more than a momentary event....but I don't know.
chownah

It seems that the Samyutta Nikiya has a section on jhana....but I have not been able to find it on line....does anyone have a link to it?
chownah