Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

What is explained in brief in the earlier sutta quotes is explained in detail at...

MN 148: Chachakka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The whole sutta is relevant (I guess that goes without saying), but if you want to get to the section specific to your question, scroll down to the part that says "Now, this is the path of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification."

"Now, this is the path of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification. One assumes about the eye that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.

The Blessed One said: "O Cunda, let the factors of enlightenment occur to your mind."

"These seven factors of enlightenment, bhante (Ven. Sir), are well expounded and are cultivated and fully developed by the Blessed One. They conduce to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana. What are the seven?

i. "Mindfulness, the factor of enlightenment, bhante, is well expounded by the Blessed One, and is cultivated and fully developed by the Blessed One. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

ii. "Investigation of the Dhamma, the factor of enlightenment, bhante, is well expounded by the Blessed One and is cultivated and fully developed by the Blessed One. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

iii. "Persevering effort, the factor of enlightenment, bhante, is well expounded by the Blessed One and is cultivated and fully developed by the Blessed One. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

iv. "Rapture, the factor of enlightenment, bhante, is well expounded by the Blessed One and is cultivated and fully developed by the Blessed One. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

v. "Calm, the factor of enlightenment, bhante, is well expounded by the Blessed One and is cultivated and fully developed by the Blessed One. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

vi. "Concentration, the factor of enlightenment, bhante, is well expounded by the Blessed One and is cultivated and fully developed by the Blessed One. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

vii. "Equanimity, the factor of enlightenment, bhante, is well expounded by the Blessed One, and is cultivated and fully developed by the Blessed One. It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.

These seven factors of enlightenment, bhante, are well expounded and cultivated and fully developed by the Blessed One. They conduce to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana."

"Most assuredly Cunda, they are factors of enlightenment. Most assuredly, Cunda, they are factors of enlightenment."

But the question I have is the actual process for how one is to "Remain focused on inconstancy in all fabrications," how one is to maintain "the perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the removal of the conceit 'I am.' In opther words, how does one actually "regard the eye thus." The perception of anicca is the foundation to the practice.

chownah wrote:

But the question I have is the actual process for how one is to "Remain focused on inconstancy in all fabrications," how one is to maintain "the perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the removal of the conceit 'I am.' In opther words, how does one actually "regard the eye thus." The perception of anicca is the foundation to the practice.

I think one way to do this is to not cling to the visual, auditory, gustatory, olfactory, tactile, and mental expereince......when you see a cup don't fabricate the familiarity of that cup...better to fabricate the newness of that cup....better yet...don't fabricate "cup" at all.....instead just let sensation flow by....
chownah

retro wrote:I do not see any need for anything separate, assuming one knows already how the Buddha explains anicca and sankhara - there is no deficiency in the sutta instruction.

tiltbillings wrote:The perception of anicca is the foundation to the practice.... Point me to a sutta instruction or two.

And how, bhikshus, is the perception of impermanence cultivated, how is it developed, so that
all sensual lust is exhausted; all lust for form is exhausted; all lust for existence is exhausted; all ignorance
is exhausted; all conceit of ‘I am’ is exhausted—they are (all) removed?

‘Such is form; such is the arising of form; such is the ending of form.
Such is feeling; such is the arising of feeling; such is the ending of feeling.
Such is perception; such is the arising of perception; such is the ending of perception.
Such are formations; such is the arising of formations; such is the ending of formations.
Such is consciousness; such is the arising of consciousness; such is the ending of consciousness.’

Bhikshus, this is how the perception of impermanence, when cultivated, when well developed,
all sensual lust is exhausted,
all lust for form is exhausted,
all lust for existence is exhausted,
all ignorance is exhausted;
all conceit of ‘I am’ is exhausted—they are (all) removed.”

...

Bhikshus, just as when a stalk of a bunch of mangoes has been cut, all the mangoes
attached to the stalk would follow it;
even so, bhikshus, when the perception of impermanence is cultivated and well developed, all sensual
lust is exhausted, all lust for form is exhausted, all lust for existence is exhausted, all ignorance is exhausted;
all conceit of ‘I am’ is exhausted—they are (all) removed

tiltbillings wrote:

chownah wrote:

But the question I have is the actual process for how one is to "Remain focused on inconstancy in all fabrications," how one is to maintain "the perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the removal of the conceit 'I am.' In opther words, how does one actually "regard the eye thus." The perception of anicca is the foundation to the practice.

I think one way to do this is to not cling to the visual, auditory, gustatory, olfactory, tactile, and mental expereince......when you see a cup don't fabricate the familiarity of that cup...better to fabricate the newness of that cup....better yet...don't fabricate "cup" at all.....instead just let sensation flow by....
chownah

Okay, but it really does not work to say to myself: "Don't cling, it is all anicca." One can do that but it is still conceptual stuff.

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:The perception of anicca is the foundation to the practice.... Point me to a sutta instruction or two.

SN 22.102: Aniccasañña Sutta

And how, bhikshus, is the perception of impermanence cultivated, how is it developed, so that
all sensual lust is exhausted; all lust for form is exhausted; all lust for existence is exhausted; all ignorance
is exhausted; all conceit of ‘I am’ is exhausted—they are (all) removed?
‘Such is form; such is the arising of form; such is the ending of form. . . . .

"As for the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, he should approach an individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way. Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment. AN 4.94 PTS: A ii 93 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... .than.html

You're right about that. I'm wondering if actually you are asking what is the process for the penetrative understanding of impermanence......isn't "remaining focused on inconsistency in all fabrications" just a way of saying "continuously seeing impermanence clearly "? If this is so then I doubt that there will be a "process" that will accomplish this goal.....I guess that it would be achieved by meditating and developing insite which of course is described in its many form throughout the Buddha's teachings.......is this sort of like the "process" you are asking about or is it something else?

tiltbillings wrote: I assume there are practical ways doing what is said here, otherwise the catechism of the OP really doesn’t say anything.

mikenz66 wrote:

tiltbillings wrote: I assume there are practical ways doing what is said here, otherwise the catechism of the OP really doesn’t say anything.

Or, perhaps, there are a number of practical ways of doing it and the differences between them have no Dhammic significance?

Certainly, the advice of essentially anyone I can think of: Sayadaw Mahasi, Goenka, Thich Nhat Hanh, Ajahn Brahm, Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Buddhadasa, Ajahn Maha Bua, Ajahn Sumedho, Bhante Gunaratana, Bhante Vimalaramsi, etc, etc, is perfectly compatible with those sutta quotes...

tiltbillings wrote: I assume there are practical ways doing what is said here, otherwise the catechism of the OP really doesn’t say anything.

chownah wrote:

tiltbillings wrote: I assume there are practical ways doing what is said here, otherwise the catechism of the OP really doesn’t say anything.

I think that the catechism as you call it is not meant as a "how to" guide but rather as a "what to" guide and also as a way to lay out a roadmap of things that happen along the way...

chownah wrote:Anyone got a link to SN 55.3 in it entirety?
chownah

I will be one who possesses confirmed confidence in the Buddha thus: 'The Blessed One is ... teacher of devas and humans, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.' I will be one who possesses confirmed confidence in the Dhamma ... in the Sangha ... I will be one who possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones, unbroken... leading to concentration.' It is in such a way that you should train yourself.