Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

legolas wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:

legolas wrote:
Cannot all external things be perceived?

Another person's guts generally are not.

A recollection and inference of another persons "guts" can be perceived. As I am so are others.

"Perceives" as in sanjaanaati (I doubt it); or "conceives" as in mannati; or gives rise to/re-births [ ] knowledge and vision of as in abhinibbatteti?; or "knows directly" (as arahants do) as in abhijaanaati?;
Just like in the rebirth threads, the specific Pali original makes a difference here.

lojong1 wrote:

"Perceives" as in sanjaanaati (I doubt it); or "conceives" as in mannati; or gives rise to/re-births knowledge and vision of as in abhinibbatteti?; or "knows directly" (as arahants do) as in abhijaanaati?;
Just like in the rebirth threads, the specific Pali original makes a difference here.

And your point is?

retrofuturist wrote:I wonder if there is a third way... where internal refers to actual experience of x, and external refers to objective existence of x? Any thoughts?

Could be. The Pali is usually pretty specific with words of observation, perception, conception, knowing, thinking etc, regarding which level of disciple is capable of them with which object in what way when.
The Pali in DN18 is, internally-- "Ajjhattaṃ kāye kāyānupassī viharanto" (internally, dwells observing body in body); and externally--"Bahiddhā parakāye ñāṇadassanaṃ abhinibbatteti." (externally, "re-births"/gives rise to knowledge and vision of another's body).
I'll look up this "ñāṇadassanaṃ abhinibbatteti" thing.

tiltbillings wrote:And your point is?

In Bodhi's MN, perceives is sanjaanaati. Sanjaanaati is not in any of these internal/external passages, so why bring it in? Most of the Pali words that could be translated as perceived, can't be used for the same objects that the English 'perceives' can.
I'm good at being unclear...one more shot: You can't bahiddha kayanupassinate another's guts, but you might be able to bahiddha abhinibbattinate nanadassana regarding them.

Even if the English word 'perceived' CAN be used in both cases, it's irrelevant here because we're trying to translate Pali phrases.

lojong1 wrote:

tiltbillings wrote:And your point is?

In Bodhi's MN, perceives is sanjaanaati. Sanjaanaati is not in any of these internal/external passages, so why bring it in? Most of the Pali words that could be translated as perceived, can't be used for the same objects that the English 'perceives' can.
I'm good at being unclear...one more shot: You can't bahiddha kayanupassinate another's guts, but you might be able to bahiddha abhinibbattinate nanadassana regarding them.

Even if the English word 'perceived' CAN be used in both cases, it's irrelevant here because we're trying to translate Pali phrases.

I think you are way over thinking this. Read Ven Analayo's account in his book. I think the commemtarial gloss is to the point.

lojong1 wrote:You can't bahiddha kayanupassinate another's guts

But MN10 says you can. The over-thinker thinks he knows better than the suttas, eh? Whatever.

tiltbillings wrote:Sometimes things aren’t simple. I do think that the commentary’s gloss of bahiddhaa, “external”, literally, outside, as referring to another’s “body” is reasonable, if not correct. When looking at the various passages throughout the suttas that contain ajjhata, internal/inside, and bahiddhaa that gloss certainly seems to be supported.

It does look correct, especially in light of DN18's bahiddhaa--parakaye, --paracitte, --paravedanaasu, and --paradhammesu.

tiltbillings wrote:Read Ven Analayo's account in his book. I think the commentarial gloss is to the point.

Not that I'm not over-thinking, but it's not any particular gloss or even anyone's interpretation of any gloss that prompts most of my posts...
Bah, maddening, please don't drop your kids on their heads!

Okay, I'm way out in left field, but still on the field.
Analaayo did notice DN 18's "para-kaye," "para-citte" etc. It's in the last paragraph p.98 of "Satipatthana: The Direct Path"
http://books.google.ca/books?id=m8QdXyA ... ye&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"In the Janavasabha Sutta [DN18], in a context directly related to Satipatthana, "external" explicitly refers to the bodies, feelings, etc. of others. This passage carries considerable weight in relation to the present discussion, since it is the only discourse to provide additional information on the nature of "external" satipatthana."

lojong1 wrote:Okay, I'm way out in left field, but still on the field.
Analaayo did notice DN 18's "para-kaye," "para-citte" etc. It's in the last paragraph p.98 of "Satipatthana: The Direct Path"
http://books.google.ca/books?id=m8QdXyA ... ye&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ven Analayo certainly acknowledges the possibilities of alternate interpretations, but he but he does not find them as convincing as the commentarial take on the issue of external/internal.

SN, maha-vagga, satipatthana-samyutta, nalanda-vaggo, sedaka sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
the acrobat and frying pan (?) on bamboo pole--
"A frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll watch after myself (attaana.m).' A frame of reference is to be practiced with the thought, 'I'll watch after others (para.m).' When watching after oneself, one watches after others. When watching after others, one watches after oneself."

lojong1 wrote:DN 18: "Ajjhattaṃ kāye kāyānupassī viharanto"; BUT "Bahiddhā parakāye ñāṇadassanaṃ abhinibbatteti."

Here's another clue to the meaning of bahiddhaa and who is capable of observing it?
Nanamoli/Bodhi MN note 35: "'seeing/dassana" here [in SabbaasavaSutta] refers to sotaapattimagga, so designated because it offers the first glimpse of nibbaana."

http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... a-visuddhi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Ñānadassana-visuddhi: 'purification of knowledge and vision', is the last of the 7 purifications and a name for path-knowledge maggañāna i.e. the penetrating realization of the path of Stream-winning, Once-returning, Non-returning or Arahantship. Vis.M XXII furnishes a detailed explanation of it see: visuddhi.
In A. IV, 41 ñānadassana apparently means the divine eye dibbacakkhu abhiññā being produced through concentrating the mind on light."

Maybe internal/external refers to the 12 bases (aayatana) that are divided into 6 ajjhattika (eye ear nose tongue body mind) and 6 baahira (form sound odor taste tangible mind-object).

Thanissaro Bhikkhu translates sati as "keeping something in mind." To be aware of other people's minds and inside their bodies would require psychic powers.

With metta / dhammapal.

dhammapal wrote:...would require psychic powers.

Teachers I've heard all agree that it is possible for advanced practitioners. This fits the instruction, which says "internally, or externally, or both," whatever you can manage.

Perhaps Lojong you would care to quote Theravada teachers who interpret those passages as having an optional meaning involving psychic powers ?
This being the Theravada Meditation forum and all...The reason I ask is that most Theravadin teachers advise giving such powers a very wide berth.