No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

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No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:29 am

Greetings,

Unless I'm missing something, in the Satipatthana Sutta, despite it containing a good many words, there appears to be no mention of the "three characteristics" (i.e. anicca, anatta, dukkha) of objects.

Is this of significance to how we perform mental cultivation, or is it entirely irrelevant?

:meditate:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

Postby Alex123 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:11 am

IMHO, By fulfilling the actual practice, one will see these characteristics for oneself. Focus on the causes and results (seeing triple characteristics, Awakening) will follow.

It could be that merely repeating and studying (anicca, dukkha, anatta) is very limited. Much better to have direct and personal vision of it. If these are present in every mental state, then it should be seen by us when sati is developed well enough.

When someone tells "anicca", it could merely be the sound. But if one discovers it for oneself through mindfulness, then the personal knowledge is not a mere sound.
"dust to dust...."

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Re: No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:16 am

In a section entitle "Impermanence" Ven Analayo, in his book on satipatthana, wrote:
    The 'refrain' instructs the meditator to contemplate "the nature of arising", and "the nature of passing away, and "the nature of both arising and passing away." . . . this instruction represents) a temporal progression which leads from the observing the arising aspect of phenomenon to focusing on their disappearance, and culminating in a comprehensive vision of impermanence as such. . . . The other two characteristics of conditioned existence -- dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) and anatta (absence of self) -- become evident as a consequence of a direct experience and thereby realistic appreciation of the truth of impermanence. -- Satipatthana: the direct path to realization, p 103-4.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

Postby bodom » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:19 am

"In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body.


"Now what is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful; separation from the loved is stressful; not getting what one wants is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Well two of the three are covered anyway.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

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Re: No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:21 am

bodom wrote:Well two of the three are covered anyway.
    ". . . the perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the removal of the conceit 'I am.' For when one perceives impermanence, Meghiya, the perception of not-self is established. When one perceives not-self one reaches the removal of the conceit 'I am,' which is called Nibbana here and now." U iv 1.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

Postby bodom » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:24 am

tiltbillings wrote:In a section entitle "Impermanence" Ven Analayo, in his book on satipatthana, wrote:
    The 'refrain' instructs the meditator to contemplate "the nature of arising", and "the nature of passing away, and "the nature of both arising and passing away." . . . this instruction represents) a temporal progression which leads from the observing the arising aspect of phenomenon to focusing on their disappearance, and culminating in a comprehensive vision of impermanence as such. . . . The other two characteristics of conditioned existence -- dukkha (unsatisfactoriness) and anatta (absence of self) -- become evident as a consequence of a direct experience and thereby realistic appreciation of the truth of impermanence. -- Satipatthana: the direct path to realization, p 103-4.


:goodpost:

Similarly Ajahn Chah in his many teachings always emphasised that seeing impermanence was the doorway into seeing the other two characteristics.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

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Re: No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

Postby bodom » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:27 am

tiltbillings wrote:
bodom wrote:Well two of the three are covered anyway.
    ". . . the perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the removal of the conceit 'I am.' For when one perceives impermanence, Meghiya, the perception of not-self is established. When one perceives not-self one reaches the removal of the conceit 'I am,' which is called Nibbana here and now." U iv 1.


Well there you have it. Good stuff tilt thanks.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

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Re: No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

Postby Dmytro » Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:52 am

Greetings Retro,

retrofuturist wrote:Unless I'm missing something, in the Satipatthana Sutta, despite it containing a good many words, there appears to be no mention of the "three characteristics" (i.e. anicca, anatta, dukkha) of objects.

Is this of significance to how we perform mental cultivation, or is it entirely irrelevant?


Buddha describes in the sutta the same practice, but in other words.

As explained in the Commentary:

Samudayadhammanupassi = "Contemplating origination-things." In this contemplation of feeling, the bhikkhu dwells seeing the origination and the dissolution of the aggregate of feeling or seeing the origination of feeling at one time and the dissolution of feeling at another time, by way of ignorance, craving and so forth, in the five ways mentioned in the Section on the Modes of Deportment.

Samudaya-dhammanupassi = "Contemplating origination-things." Also dissolution-things are included here. Origination and dissolution should be dwelt upon by way of the fivefold method beginning with the words: "He, thinking 'the origination of materiality comes to be through the origination of ignorance,' in the sense of the origin of conditions, sees the arising of the aggregate of materiality."

In the same way he sees the arising of the aggregate of materiality through the origination of craving, karma and food, in the sense of the origin of conditions, and also while seeing the sign of birth [nibbatti lakkhana passanto pi]. He sees the passing away of the aggregate while thinking that the dissolution of materiality comes to be through the dissolution of ignorance, in the sense of the dissolution of conditions, and through the dissolution of craving, karma and food, in the same way, and while seeing the sign of vicissitude [viparinamalakkhana].

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/wayof.html

Contemplating arising and cessation in terms of Conditioned Arising http://dhamma.ru/lib/paticcas.htm is the essence of recognition of impermanence (anicca-sanna)
(see Aniccasanna sutta, Samyutta Nikaya, Khandhavagga, §102, Ro: 3.154).

Metta,

Dmytro

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Re: No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:23 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Unless I'm missing something, in the Satipatthana Sutta, despite it containing a good many words, there appears to be no mention of the "three characteristics" (i.e. anicca, anatta, dukkha) of objects.

Is this of significance to how we perform mental cultivation, or is it entirely irrelevant?

:meditate:

Metta,
Retro. :)

Try looking at the refrain...
it is not direct i.e. the words are not there but it they are certainly implied quite strongly in my opinion wtiw.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: No "three characteristics of objects" in Satipatthana Sutta

Postby vinasp » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:29 am

Hi Retro,

The wording changes in the last section:

1. Contemplation of Body: " ... abides contemplating the body as a body."

2. Contemplation of Feeling: " .. abides contemplating feelings as feelings."

3. Contemplation of Mind: " ... abides contemplating mind as mind."

4. Contemplation of Mind-Objects: ".. abides contemplating mind-objects as
mind-objects in terms of the five hindrances."

We are not told what the mind-objects are, only that they are contemplated
"in terms of" - or in the context of - the five hindrances.

[ or the five aggregates of clinging, or the six internal and external bases.]

I think it means seeing how these things originate from mind-objects, and
therefore cease when the mind object ceases.

Regards, Vincent.


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