satipatthana practice?

Discussion of Satipatthana bhavanā and Vipassana bhavana.

satipatthana practice?

Postby johnny » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:25 pm

i practice the all around mindfulness ideas from satipatthana but i don't understand the huge amount of methods found in MN 10/DN 22. are you supposed too practice them sequentially, in tandem, pick just one, do whatever one is the most relevant to whatever you are doing, or what?
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: satipatthana practice?

Postby Nyana » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:41 pm

johnny wrote:i practice the all around mindfulness ideas from satipatthana but i don't understand the huge amount of methods found in MN 10/DN 22. are you supposed too practice them sequentially, in tandem, pick just one, do whatever one is the most relevant to whatever you are doing, or what?

There are no hard and fast rules, but it's generally considered effective to pick one of the practices listed under body contemplation and develop it, preferably with the aid of a teacher. Detailed instructions on these various practices can be found in the Vimuttimagga and the Visuddhimagga.

All other aspects of the satipaṭṭhānas (i.e. contemplation of feelings, mind, and dhammas) can be related directly to the development of the practices listed under contemplation of the body. Said another way, when contemplation of the body is being developed, the other three are also being developed.
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Re: satipatthana practice?

Postby Ben » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:46 pm

Greetings Johnny,
if you are interested, I recommend the following work by Bhikkhu Analayo:

Satipatthana: the direct path to realization
kind regards,

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

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Re: satipatthana practice?

Postby johnny » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:35 am

Ben wrote:Greetings Johnny,
if you are interested, I recommend the following work by Bhikkhu Analayo:

Satipatthana: the direct path to realization
kind regards,

Ben


thank you sir.
i heard this was more of a masters thesis style, essay-like work as opposed too an instruction manual. as such, i went with "the heart of buddhist meditation" by nyanaponika thera. freaking mind blowing and wonderful. but when he presents his recommended method it leaves out most of what's in the sutta. his recommended method works wonders, i'm curious more than anything.

does the book you recommend explain detailed practice for all the aspects in the sutta and/or when and in what order too practice them or whether too do them all or whatever?
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: satipatthana practice?

Postby johnny » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:39 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
johnny wrote:i practice the all around mindfulness ideas from satipatthana but i don't understand the huge amount of methods found in MN 10/DN 22. are you supposed too practice them sequentially, in tandem, pick just one, do whatever one is the most relevant to whatever you are doing, or what?

There are no hard and fast rules, but it's generally considered effective to pick one of the practices listed under body contemplation and develop it, preferably with the aid of a teacher. Detailed instructions on these various practices can be found in the Vimuttimagga and the Visuddhimagga.

All other aspects of the satipaṭṭhānas (i.e. contemplation of feelings, mind, and dhammas) can be related directly to the development of the practices listed under contemplation of the body. Said another way, when contemplation of the body is being developed, the other three are also being developed.



interesting. could you elaborate further on how all three are developed? i know this is more or less what is explained in the anapanasati sutta, in that when practiced as instructed it fulfills the four foundations in full even though it seems too be just one of them.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: satipatthana practice?

Postby santa100 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:43 am

The Context section of the wiki link gives some interesting info. on how to approach satipatthana..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satipatthana_Sutta#Context
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Re: satipatthana practice?

Postby johnny » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:45 am

santa100 wrote:The Context section of the wiki link gives some interesting info. on how to approach satipatthana..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satipatthana_Sutta#Context


thanks, this is actually what i read a while ago that gave me the idea that people may practice them in different ways. perhaps there is no "right" answer...
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: satipatthana practice?

Postby Dmytro » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:34 am

Hi Johnny,

johnny wrote:i practice the all around mindfulness ideas from satipatthana but i don't understand the huge amount of methods found in MN 10/DN 22. are you supposed too practice them sequentially, in tandem, pick just one, do whatever one is the most relevant to whatever you are doing, or what?


Ideally, teacher would recommend the method suited to your personality type.

To comprehend the Satipatthana, I would advise to study Satipatthana Samyutta from Samyutta Nikaya, especially Bhikkhunupassaya sutta:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5656#p88181

and the traditional commentary:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html
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Re: satipatthana practice?

Postby Ben » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:00 am

johnny wrote:
Ben wrote:Greetings Johnny,
if you are interested, I recommend the following work by Bhikkhu Analayo:

Satipatthana: the direct path to realization
kind regards,

Ben


thank you sir.

No need to call me "sir". Just call me "Ben".

johnny wrote:i heard this was more of a masters thesis style, essay-like work as opposed too an instruction manual. as such, i went with "the heart of buddhist meditation" by nyanaponika thera. freaking mind blowing and wonderful. but when he presents his recommended method it leaves out most of what's in the sutta. his recommended method works wonders, i'm curious more than anything.

does the book you recommend explain detailed practice for all the aspects in the sutta and/or when and in what order too practice them or whether too do them all or whatever?

Its actually a doctorate thesis. It is really a modern-day commentary. It compliments Nyanaponika Thera's work beautifully. Nyanaponika Thera's Heart of Buddhist Meditation is based on Mahasi Sayadaw's technique, but like Analayo's work, has global application.
kind regards,

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
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Re: satipatthana practice?

Postby johnny » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:30 am

i think the thing that is the most confusing is that there are four foundations, and most recommend to pick only one method...

honestly i've been having and continue too have great results from mainly focusing on just attention itself, making sure that i stay mindful and give everything bare attention. when an emotion comes i give it bare attention and let it go. when i'm walking i give my steps bare attention. when i lie down at night, etc. so i kind of cover them all and it seems too go pretty well. mainly i'm just curious as too what the consensus is on this.

in the past i have tried too do just mindfulness of breathing but found that there are times when it is impractical or extremely difficult too do so. such as when working or when really stressed out. so satipatthana techniques of different areas come in handy there: when working i'm mindful of my immediate task (not directly mentioned in the sutta but whatever), when stressed out i watch the mind object, note what it is (mind affected by sloth or whatever the object is), and let it go, keeping bare attention until it fades. this seems too be a more complete practice for me and so satipatthana seems like it covers every moment of your day.

should i be just picking one topic or does my method sound like it could be a good idea?
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: satipatthana practice?

Postby johnny » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:36 am

Ben wrote:
johnny wrote:
Ben wrote:Greetings Johnny,
if you are interested, I recommend the following work by Bhikkhu Analayo:

Satipatthana: the direct path to realization
kind regards,

Ben


thank you sir.

No need to call me "sir". Just call me "Ben".

johnny wrote:i heard this was more of a masters thesis style, essay-like work as opposed too an instruction manual. as such, i went with "the heart of buddhist meditation" by nyanaponika thera. freaking mind blowing and wonderful. but when he presents his recommended method it leaves out most of what's in the sutta. his recommended method works wonders, i'm curious more than anything.

does the book you recommend explain detailed practice for all the aspects in the sutta and/or when and in what order too practice them or whether too do them all or whatever?

Its actually a doctorate thesis. It is really a modern-day commentary. It compliments Nyanaponika Thera's work beautifully. Nyanaponika Thera's Heart of Buddhist Meditation is based on Mahasi Sayadaw's technique, but like Analayo's work, has global application.
kind regards,

Ben



cool, i will look into it if it compliments the nyanaponika book! thanks. and i may accidentally write "sir" still sometimes. it's just habit. i work in a very customer oriented job where those types of titles are very strongly recommended too be used, so it's kind of ingrained in me but i'll try too refrain from it when talking too you. it's a sign of respect :) i actually had too break myself of the habit of calling people "dude" or "man". still sometimes i start too say "what's up man?" and catch myself so it turns into a comically awkward "what's up... sir?" lol!
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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Re: satipatthana practice?

Postby Nyana » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:47 am

johnny wrote:interesting. could you elaborate further on how all three are developed? i know this is more or less what is explained in the anapanasati sutta, in that when practiced as instructed it fulfills the four foundations in full even though it seems too be just one of them.

Yes, the four satipaṭṭhānas are kind of like four "layers" of experience (so to speak) which we can learn to attend to and explore through mindfulness and full awareness. For example, if one's practice is mindfulness of breathing, there is always feeling occurring along with the breath, as well as mind, and the various groupings of dhammas listed under the fourth satipaṭṭhāna. With practice, we can learn how to skillfully relate to feelings as they occur. We can learn how to appreciate the spacious quality of mind that's available when we are relaxed and present. And we can learn how to work with the hindrances when they occur, and so on. There's considerable depth to these four "layers" of experience that can be explored and developed as we expand our enthusiasm and commitment to practice. And this commitment can extend into every aspect of our life, eventually bringing the simplicity of full awareness to every situation.
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Re: satipatthana practice?

Postby johnny » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:49 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
johnny wrote:interesting. could you elaborate further on how all three are developed? i know this is more or less what is explained in the anapanasati sutta, in that when practiced as instructed it fulfills the four foundations in full even though it seems too be just one of them.

Yes, the four satipaṭṭhānas are kind of like four "layers" of experience (so to speak) which we can learn to attend to and explore through mindfulness and full awareness. For example, if one's practice is mindfulness of breathing, there is always feeling occurring along with the breath, as well as mind, and the various groupings of dhammas listed under the fourth satipaṭṭhāna. With practice, we can learn how to skillfully relate to feelings as they occur. We can learn how to appreciate the spacious quality of mind that's available when we are relaxed and present. And we can learn how to work with the hindrances when they occur, and so on. There's considerable depth to these four "layers" of experience that can be explored and developed as we expand our enthusiasm and commitment to practice. And this commitment can extend into every aspect of our life, eventually bringing the simplicity of full awareness to every situation.


thanks, so is it better too only pick one or is it equally useful to use more than one in tandem?
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
User avatar
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Posts: 151
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Re: satipatthana practice?

Postby Nyana » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:55 am

johnny wrote:honestly i've been having and continue too have great results from mainly focusing on just attention itself, making sure that i stay mindful and give everything bare attention. when an emotion comes i give it bare attention and let it go. when i'm walking i give my steps bare attention. when i lie down at night, etc. so i kind of cover them all and it seems too go pretty well. mainly i'm just curious as too what the consensus is on this.

If it's working, then that's great.

johnny wrote:in the past i have tried too do just mindfulness of breathing but found that there are times when it is impractical or extremely difficult too do so. such as when working or when really stressed out. so satipatthana techniques of different areas come in handy there: when working i'm mindful of my immediate task (not directly mentioned in the sutta but whatever), when stressed out i watch the mind object, note what it is (mind affected by sloth or whatever the object is), and let it go, keeping bare attention until it fades. this seems too be a more complete practice for me and so satipatthana seems like it covers every moment of your day.

Yes, this is what is prescribed in the section of the sutta on developing full awareness during the four postures, when moving and extending the limbs, when eating, etc.

johnny wrote:should i be just picking one topic or does my method sound like it could be a good idea?

Sounds like what you're doing is working well for you. In time you may come to appreciate other aspects of the practice, such as maintaining awareness of the breath during daily activities, and so on.
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Re: satipatthana practice?

Postby johnny » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:27 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
johnny wrote:honestly i've been having and continue too have great results from mainly focusing on just attention itself, making sure that i stay mindful and give everything bare attention. when an emotion comes i give it bare attention and let it go. when i'm walking i give my steps bare attention. when i lie down at night, etc. so i kind of cover them all and it seems too go pretty well. mainly i'm just curious as too what the consensus is on this.

If it's working, then that's great.

johnny wrote:in the past i have tried too do just mindfulness of breathing but found that there are times when it is impractical or extremely difficult too do so. such as when working or when really stressed out. so satipatthana techniques of different areas come in handy there: when working i'm mindful of my immediate task (not directly mentioned in the sutta but whatever), when stressed out i watch the mind object, note what it is (mind affected by sloth or whatever the object is), and let it go, keeping bare attention until it fades. this seems too be a more complete practice for me and so satipatthana seems like it covers every moment of your day.

Yes, this is what is prescribed in the section of the sutta on developing full awareness during the four postures, when moving and extending the limbs, when eating, etc.

johnny wrote:should i be just picking one topic or does my method sound like it could be a good idea?

Sounds like what you're doing is working well for you. In time you may come to appreciate other aspects of the practice, such as maintaining awareness of the breath during daily activities, and so on.


thanks much for taking the time too talk too me! great info.
The time would not pass. Somebody was playing with the clocks, and not only the electronic clocks but the wind-up kind too. The second hand on my watch would twitch once, and a year would pass, and then it would twitch again.
There was nothing I could do about it. As an Earthling I had to believe whatever clocks said -and calendars.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five
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