Why the criticisms?

Discussion of Satipatthana bhavanā and Vipassana bhavana.

Re: Why the criticisms?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:03 pm

Hi Billy,
Billymac29 wrote:Would you happen to have any more writings of the subject??

Bhikkhu Pesala's site http://www.aimwell.org/ has a number of translations by Mahasi Sayadaw and others.

In terms of getting a rather opposite view of arguments, there is a book out there (and it may be on a website, I only have a paper copy) that collects together an argument that happened over a period of years in, I believe, a Sri Lankan journal. "Opposite" because, unlike comments about such-and-such "not being in the suttas" that one sometimes sees on this site, the objections were that Mahasi Sayadaw had erred by not paying enough attention to the ancient commentaries...

If you read the link that Bhikkhu Pesala gave carefully, you'll see hints of U Pandita's rather playful attitude to criticisms and texts there.

http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Other/Ques ... tions.html
Consequently, if we are to instruct meditators to develop ānāpānassati as part of vipassanā meditation, we will be inviting much unwanted and unwarranted criticism and controversy. And neither Mahāsi Sayādaw or myself would want to argue here that the Visuddhimagga, the rightly venerated classic, is at fault here.


:anjali:
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Postby Billymac29 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:44 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Billy,


In terms of getting a rather opposite view of arguments, there is a book out there (and it may be on a website, I only have a paper copy) that collects together an argument that happened over a period of years in, I believe, a Sri Lankan journal. "Opposite" because, unlike comments about such-and-such "not being in the suttas" that one sometimes sees on this site, the objections were that Mahasi Sayadaw had erred by not paying enough attention to the ancient commentaries...

:anjali:
Mike


I would love to be able to read that book. I believe that would be quite interesting...

thanks Mike
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:02 pm

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Re: Why the criticisms?

Postby Billymac29 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:12 pm



Thank you again bhante
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Postby Gena1480 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:17 am

Hello to all
Can i ask you friends
what frame is being used when noting?
in what frame is mindfulness establish?
is it body?
is it feelings?
is it mind?
is it mental qualities?
if you select one
please tell me how is it that its being establish?
thank you.
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Postby Billymac29 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:34 pm

Gena1480 wrote:Hello to all
Can i ask you friends
what frame is being used when noting?
in what frame is mindfulness establish?
is it body?
is it feelings?
is it mind?
is it mental qualities?
if you select one
please tell me how is it that its being establish?
thank you.


The primary object is usually the body and when another impedes strong enough you move to that secondary object until it passes and then return to your primary object of attention

With metta
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Postby Kamran » Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:13 pm

The noting technique did not work well for me when typing at a computer all day, but I think it may be a useful method for me to develop in other scenarios.
When this concentration is thus developed, thus well developed by you, then wherever you go, you will go in comfort. Wherever you stand, you will stand in comfort. Wherever you sit, you will sit in comfort. Wherever you lie down, you will lie down in comfort.
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:57 pm

Kamran wrote:The noting technique did not work well for me when typing at a computer all day, but I think it may be a useful method for me to develop in other scenarios.

:tongue:

Yes, it's not going to be practical, or desirable, to go through life noting every movement of the fingers...

In a controlled situation, such as a retreat, it can be a very helpful exercise to pay continuous attention to every movement, and every feeling and thought that arises, to see just what your body/mind is up to...

In "real life" this is, of course, not going to be an option. However, with this training it is easier to follow advice such as:
"In the same way, Rahula, bodily actions, verbal actions, & mental actions are to be done with repeated reflection.

"Whenever you want to do a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I want to do — would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Would it be an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' ...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


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Re: Why the criticisms?

Postby Billymac29 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:05 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Kamran wrote:The noting technique did not work well for me when typing at a computer all day, but I think it may be a useful method for me to develop in other scenarios.

:tongue:

Yes, it's not going to be practical, or desirable, to go through life noting every movement of the fingers...

In a controlled situation, such as a retreat, it can be a very helpful exercise to pay continuous attention to every movement, and every feeling and thought that arises, to see just what your body/mind is up to...

In "real life" this is, of course, not going to be an option. However, with this training it is easier to follow advice such as:
"In the same way, Rahula, bodily actions, verbal actions, & mental actions are to be done with repeated reflection.

"Whenever you want to do a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I want to do — would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Would it be an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' ...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


:anjali:
Mike


I agree... Also remember noting itself is not mindfulness, but a tool to help aid in mindfulness

:anjali:

way all be well
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Postby purple planet » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:50 pm

agree... Also remember noting itself is not mindfulness, but a tool to help aid in mindfulness


billymac you are right (i think) - i just want to add i read somewhere a monk said that if you label you have mindfulness at that moment - that once you label something you cannot be unmindful at that time
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Postby Billymac29 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:21 pm

purple planet wrote:
agree... Also remember noting itself is not mindfulness, but a tool to help aid in mindfulness


billymac you are right (i think) - i just want to add i read somewhere a monk said that if you label you have mindfulness at that moment - that once you label something you cannot be unmindful at that time


thanks purple.. do you recall the book or the bhikkhu?

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Re: Why the criticisms?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:01 pm

Billymac29 wrote: . . .
In addition to the the book I recommended here, let me also recommed a brilliant book by Ven Analayo: Satipatthana: The Direct Path to Realization.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Why the criticisms?

Postby Billymac29 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:13 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Billymac29 wrote: . . .
In addition to the the book I recommended here, let me also recommed a brilliant book by Ven Analayo: Satipatthana: The Direct Path to Realization.



thanks again tilt :D
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Postby purple planet » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:04 am

I am pretty sure its yuttadhammo but im not sure where i saw it - he has a website http://ask.sirimangalo.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to ask him questions

put in the search "labeling" ect and you can find his answers- he also have lots of youtube videos

im not sure exactly where he said it

a video i saw which is helpful to the subject

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ0WUgmTndc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by purple planet on Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Postby Billymac29 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:53 am

purple planet wrote:I am pretty sure its yuttadhammo but im not sure where i saw it - he has a website http://ask.sirimangalo.org/ to ask him questions

put in the search "labeling" ect and you can find his answers- he also have lots of youtube videos

im not sure exactly where he said it

a video i saw which is helpful to the subject

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ0WUgmTndc


Sorry purple, that video is of vimalaramsi and I do not follow his teachings nor believe anything he says... In my eyes he tells false truths..
Thanks for the input though :)

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Re: Why the criticisms?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:59 pm

purple planet wrote:I am pretty sure its yuttadhammo but im not sure where i saw it - he has a website http://ask.sirimangalo.org/ to ask him questions

put in the search "labeling" ect and you can find his answers- he also have lots of youtube videos

im not sure exactly where he said it

a video i saw which is helpful to the subject

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ0WUgmTndc
Vimalaramsi claims what he is doing is exactly taught by the Buddha, but quite frankly is is a practice of his own devising. See this thread: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10912 and particularly see Ven Dhammanando's postings:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10912 and viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10912&start=40#p166692 and viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10912&start=40#p166693

As a commentator on Burmese vipassana, he is a less than a reliable reporter.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Why the criticisms?

Postby Billymac29 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:42 pm

purple planet wrote:I am pretty sure its yuttadhammo but im not sure where i saw it - he has a website http://ask.sirimangalo.org/ to ask him questions

put in the search "labeling" ect and you can find his answers- he also have lots of youtube videos

im not sure exactly where he said it

a video i saw which is helpful to the subject

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJ0WUgmTndc


Yes bhante yuttadhammo is from the ajahn tong lineage... They teach to continue the la
beling throughout the practice... I have talked personally with bhante yuttadhammo about this and he firmly believes in keeping up with the labeling and not letting it drop off.. I believe people have had successful benefits both in keeping up the labeling or letting drop off at the right time..

As yuttadhammo says "try the labeling and try without and see which one works better for you..
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Postby Bakmoon » Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:27 am

Billymac29 wrote:Quick question:
Why are there so many criticisms about the Mahasi technique out there?
Which parts of the technique are based off the suttas? And which part is based off of the commentaries? Can anyone help with this question?

With metta


The big reason why people criticize is that it ties into a huge debate about the role of the Jhanas in meditation. For those who emphasize the importance of Jhana, the Mahasi technique is criticized as not leading to Jhana.

Personally I find such criticism to be rather misplaced. Although I practice Anapanasati according to the Thai forest tradition, I also study many works which are important to the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition and have found that my understanding of the whole issue is much more nuanced now, and the whole debate is a matter of semantics from my perspective and I think both methods are valid and I have come to appreciate the Mahasi method although I myself don't practice it.

I plan on someday trying it out, but only when I have the time and money to go off to Sri Lanka and practice under the Ven. Yuttadhammo.
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The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
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Re: Why the criticisms?

Postby Billymac29 » Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:26 am

Bakmoon wrote:
Billymac29 wrote:Quick question:
Why are there so many criticisms about the Mahasi technique out there?
Which parts of the technique are based off the suttas? And which part is based off of the commentaries? Can anyone help with this question?

With metta


The big reason why people criticize is that it ties into a huge debate about the role of the Jhanas in meditation. For those who emphasize the importance of Jhana, the Mahasi technique is criticized as not leading to Jhana.

Personally I find such criticism to be rather misplaced. Although I practice Anapanasati according to the Thai forest tradition, I also study many works which are important to the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition and have found that my understanding of the whole issue is much more nuanced now, and the whole debate is a matter of semantics from my perspective and I think both methods are valid and I have come to appreciate the Mahasi method although I myself don't practice it.


Yes that seems like a logical reason, thanks :)

Are you saying that the Mahasi technique can lead to the jhanas or cannot lead to the jhanas??

I plan on someday trying it out, but only when I have the time and money to go off to Sri Lanka and practice under the Ven. Yuttadhammo.


Actually, the last I talked to him, I think he's moving to Canada in the near future if he is not already there now..

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Re: Why the criticisms?

Postby Bakmoon » Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:35 am

Billymac29 wrote:
Bakmoon wrote:
Billymac29 wrote:Quick question:
Why are there so many criticisms about the Mahasi technique out there?
Which parts of the technique are based off the suttas? And which part is based off of the commentaries? Can anyone help with this question?

With metta


The big reason why people criticize is that it ties into a huge debate about the role of the Jhanas in meditation. For those who emphasize the importance of Jhana, the Mahasi technique is criticized as not leading to Jhana.

Personally I find such criticism to be rather misplaced. Although I practice Anapanasati according to the Thai forest tradition, I also study many works which are important to the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition and have found that my understanding of the whole issue is much more nuanced now, and the whole debate is a matter of semantics from my perspective and I think both methods are valid and I have come to appreciate the Mahasi method although I myself don't practice it.


Yes that seems like a logical reason, thanks :)

Are you saying that the Mahasi technique can lead to the jhanas or cannot lead to the jhanas??

I plan on someday trying it out, but only when I have the time and money to go off to Sri Lanka and practice under the Ven. Yuttadhammo.


Actually, the last I talked to him, I think he's moving to Canada in the near future if he is not already there now..

:anjali:


I am not sure, as I have not practiced the Mahasi technique as I want to practice it under a qualified teacher (I have a lot of faith in the Ven. Yuttadhammo) but it seems sensible that it can lead to jhana. I mean Vipassana Jhana by that, which I see as being a perfectly coherent concept.

I would be very happy to find out that the Ven. Yuttadhammo is relocating to Canada as that is much closer to me and he will be able to spread the Dhamma to the western world more easily. I hope things go well.
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The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
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