Bare Awareness and Right Concentration?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
binocular
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Re: Bare Awareness and Right Concentration?

Post by binocular »

tiltbillings wrote:
binocular wrote:I am generally wary about the idea of "bare awareness" and the idea that mindfulness is somehow about "just watching, without judgment."
I have never seen any reference in the suttas for this.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html
Alright, thank you.

For one, this seems like a standard enough teaching on not-self.
For two, it doesn't say that mindfulness is about "just watching, without judgment."
For three, the Buddha gave this instruction to someone who apparently already had great faith in him, not to someone who would have significant doubts about the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. Bahiya wasn't an ordinary run-of-the-mill person. Thus the instruction given to Bahiya cannot apply to just anyone, especially not to a skeptic.

Moreover, actual Buddhist teachings on not-self are contextualized by the conviction in karma and rebirth. While some of the bare-awareness folks and Western psychologists who have appropriated "mindfulness" and "bare awareness" maintain quite decisively that this one life is all there is for a person and that when the body dies, it's all over. It is my personal opinion that trying to practice "bare awareness" while believing that when this body dies, one ceases as a person, forever, amounts to practicing nihilism, and it's no wonder those people then think they must supplement Buddhist practice with Western psychology, given that they believe that Buddhism is insufficient.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Samma
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Re: Bare Awareness and Right Concentration?

Post by Samma »

As for Bahiya I'd say tathatā:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 23&start=0

If someone wants to suggest how this is bare awareness/attention go ahead:
"Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an [object] to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
especially in western Buddhism, we often use meditation terms loosely without quite knowing what they mean. A case in point would be the terms “bare awareness” and “bare attention,” which even long-time meditators, depending on how or by whom they have been taught, sometimes interchange.

For the purposes of the present discussion, at least, “bare awareness,” may, in a purely epistemological sense, be said to mean “bare awareness” of sense experience, i.e. bare registering of mind-body sensations, prior to any resultant arising mental associations; whereas “bare attention” or mindfulness, may be said to mean, a detached act of observing a mental action, carefully and heedfully, as yet uninvolved in any sense contact leading to mental action, standing back with objective detachment , analyzing potential sources and causes in the processes of arising mental associations, avoiding mental attachments that may lead to effects in resultant mental actions and reactions that will upset equanimity—in other words, in other words—“the-mind watching-the-mind.”
http://www.noblepath.info/buddhist_arti ... reness.pdf
dhammachakka
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Re: Bare Awareness and Right Concentration?

Post by dhammachakka »

a discussion on "paṭissatimattāya" is here:

https://groups.io/g/dsg/topic/99241343#175450

any insights, comments, references that can lead to clarity on the experiential understanding of " PAṬISSATI " [ BARE AWARENESS ] is most welcome.
pegembara
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Re: Bare Awareness and Right Concentration?

Post by pegembara »

If a mental note is made as “Seeing, seeing,” while an object is being seen, the object of cognition will cease just with the fact of seeing, and the process of cognition of concepts through reflection on what was seen cannot occur. In accordance with the teaching “Just seeing at the time of seeing (diṭṭhe diṭṭhamattaṃ bhavissati), and consciousness of seeing ends its course right there.

Summary of the Process of Cognition
1. In the first process of cognition of sight, consciousness registers only the ultimate reality of the sight.
2. In the first round of reflection on what has been seen, there is still consciousness of what has actually been seen namely the sight. No misconception has appeared yet. If at this stage, noting is done heedfully, misconception cannot come in. Cognition will rest only on the ultimate object.
3. In the second round of reflection, concept of form and shape of a man or a woman begin to appear.
4. In the third round of reflection, the concept of name as man or woman has appeared. (A Discourse on the Anattalakkhaṇa Sutta, Mahāsi Sayādaw)
Perhaps by directing one's attention purely to the body sensations -earth, water, fire and wind elements, there is only one round in the process of cognition simply because these sensations has no form or shape, let alone name. You are not making a mental note but actually experiencing 'sensations, sensations'! Pure experiencing with minimal conceptualising.
I don't mean conceptualizing water into blood, sweat, tears, urine, etc but just paying attention to how liquid feels. The same with the other elements.
...one is trained to observe the sensations throughout the body—pleasant, unpleasant or neutral—and understand their basic nature. Every sensation has the same nature: arising, passing away, arising, passing away.
Last edited by pegembara on Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
dhammachakka
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Re: Bare Awareness and Right Concentration?

Post by dhammachakka »

a discussion on "paṭissatimattāya" is here:

https://groups.io/g/dsg/topic/99241343#175450

any insights, comments, references that can lead to clarity on the experiential understanding of " PAṬISSATI " [ BARE AWARENESS ] is most welcome.
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Kumara
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Re: Bare Awareness and Right Concentration?

Post by Kumara »

The term "Bare Awareness" is a modern coinage which has been used in many ways, so much so that I avoid using it to avoid misunderstanding.
dhammachakka
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Re: Bare Awareness and Right Concentration?

Post by dhammachakka »

(copying a message sent at another forum)

veneration to the venerables & regards for all dhamma scholars.

i plan to publish an analytical study of the progressive stages of the development of vipassanā-ñāna in the mahasatipaṭṭhāna sutta and compare it with the general suttanta scheme, abhidhamma & visuddhimagga.

the most important word that, in my humble opinion, has been mis-translated is "paṭissatimattāya". it must denote 'merely bare-awareness' in order to fit in the scheme of the mahasatipaṭṭhāna sutta. 'paṭissati' cannot mean rememberance or memory (as some scholars state) and 'sati' and 'paṭissati' cannot mean the same awareness/mindfulness - particularly when there is a prefix 'paṭi' and 'paṭissatimattāya' is placed after 'sati' has already been established (sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti).

briefly, my conclusion is that:
ñāṇamattāya = mere awareness / mere understanding (of anicca-lakkhaṇa). i.e. mere observation (of anicca-lakkhaṇa) i.e. mere anicca-ñāṇa. observer-is-observed.

paṭissatimattāya = merely bare-awareness (of anicca-lakkhaṇa). here the awareness turns further inwards and is 'aware of itself' or the 'awareness reflects on itself' (being aware of anicca-lakkhaṇa). it is the further advanced stage of 'ñāṇamattāya' where the awareness is aware of itself and due to further deepening nibbida-ñāṇa, the fixation of awareness on anicca-lakkhaṇa falls away leading to dwelling in support-less emptiness or anatta (anissito ca viharati).

i interpret 'paṭi' in 'paṭissatimattāya' as denoting counter-form / reflective / reverse just as 'paṭi' in paṭibhāga nimitta / paṭibimba / patikkante / patinissaggānupassi. surely, after sati is already established (sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti) - 'paṭissatimattāya' cannot mean the reverse/opposite of sati i.e. asati or muṭṭha-sati.

i present the following three references re: 'paṭissati' and pray to this august dhamma assembly to:

1: kindly translate the following three quotes.

2. kindly opine whether these quotes are helpful to understand the experiential meaning of 'paṭissati' or not and what should be the correct interpretation of 'paṭissati' / 'paṭissatimattāya'.

1. "Gāthāsu ānāpāne paṭissatoti ānāpānanimittasmiṃ paṭi paṭi sato, upaṭṭhitassatīti attho".
- Asubhānupassīsuttavaṇṇanā

2. "Sampajānoti sattaṭṭhāniyena sampajaññena samannāgato. Patissatoti kammaṭṭhānaṃ phātiṃ, gametuṃ samatthāya satiyā patissato satokārī".
- Itivuttaka-aṭṭhakathā, Ekakanipāto, Dutiyasekhasuttavaṇṇanā

3. Punappunaṃ saraṇato anussaraṇavasena anussati. Abhimukhaṃ gantvā viya saraṇato paṭisaraṇavasena paṭissati.
- Mahāniddesa-aṭṭhakathā 1. Kāmasuttaniddesavaṇṇanā

praying once more to the benevolent sangha (& others) to translate the above three quotes and for suitable guidance and admonitions on this issue.

with veneration & much mettā,

manish
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Sam Vara
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Re: Bare Awareness and Right Concentration?

Post by Sam Vara »

dhammachakka wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:14 pm (copying a message sent at another forum)

manish
Hi Manish,

Please don't put the same post in multiple threads. The post is very welcome, but as you have necro-posted on several threads nothing is achieved by posting it in several different places. If you need to refresh it, you can "bump" it in a few days. :thanks: :anjali:
dhammachakka
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Re: Bare Awareness and Right Concentration?

Post by dhammachakka »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:34 pm
dhammachakka wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:14 pm (copying a message sent at another forum)

manish
Hi Manish,

Please don't put the same post in multiple threads. The post is very welcome, but as you have necro-posted on several threads nothing is achieved by posting it in several different places. If you need to refresh it, you can "bump" it in a few days. :thanks: :anjali:
right sir. i will be careful in future. i am trying to attract the attention of all those who have pondered over this matter.

also...
i do not receive email notifications when someone sends replies to a topic where i have replied too (such as this). i have bookmarked and subscribed to all these topics but, no email notification is coming. can you please check what is wrong?

regards & mettā,
M
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Sam Vara
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Re: Bare Awareness and Right Concentration?

Post by Sam Vara »

dhammachakka wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:42 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:34 pm
dhammachakka wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:14 pm (copying a message sent at another forum)

manish
Hi Manish,

Please don't put the same post in multiple threads. The post is very welcome, but as you have necro-posted on several threads nothing is achieved by posting it in several different places. If you need to refresh it, you can "bump" it in a few days. :thanks: :anjali:
right sir. i will be careful in future. i am trying to attract the attention of all those who have pondered over this matter.

also...
i do not receive email notifications when someone sends replies to a topic where i have replied too (such as this). i have bookmarked and subscribed to all these topics but, no email notification is coming. can you please check what is wrong?

regards & mettā,
M
No worries, it just doesn't help!

With regard to the email notifications, I received your PM and was just looking into it. There may be a technical problem with the software, so we'll look into it.

S. :anjali:
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Sam Vara
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Re: Bare Awareness and Right Concentration?

Post by Sam Vara »

dhammachakka wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:42 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:34 pm
dhammachakka wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:14 pm (copying a message sent at another forum)

manish
Hi Manish,

Please don't put the same post in multiple threads. The post is very welcome, but as you have necro-posted on several threads nothing is achieved by posting it in several different places. If you need to refresh it, you can "bump" it in a few days. :thanks: :anjali:
right sir. i will be careful in future. i am trying to attract the attention of all those who have pondered over this matter.

also...
i do not receive email notifications when someone sends replies to a topic where i have replied too (such as this). i have bookmarked and subscribed to all these topics but, no email notification is coming. can you please check what is wrong?

regards & mettā,
M
Does it work now? Have you received email notification of this reply?
dhammachakka
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Re: Bare Awareness and Right Concentration?

Post by dhammachakka »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:56 pm
dhammachakka wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:42 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 9:34 pm
Does it work now? Have you received email notification of this reply?
no sir. no email.
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