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On Mahasi Sayadaw's teaching

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:22 am
by oceanfloor
Hi,

Before any further inquiry, I want to make my self clear about Sayadaw's technique. Please cmiiw:
1. In order to attain Nibbana, one needs to cut off craving.
2. To cut off craving, one develops vipassana - discerning impermanent, non-self, etc, so that any arisen feeling won't cause any attachment which in turn causes craving.

With metta.
:anjali:

Re: On Mahasi Sayadaw's teaching

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:30 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Oceanfloor,

What you have presented is not incorrect, but I feel it's worth "kicking the tyres" to see if it holds up alright and to check that your understanding is right.

In my opinion a better two point summary would be...

- The Buddha taught that the Noble Eightfold Path is the way to nibbana.
- Application of the Mahasi vipassana technique supports the pursuit of the Noble Eightfold Path.

Do not take any technique as a path, in-and-of-itself, independent of the Noble Eightfold Path, as a road to nibbana.

On that proviso, I believe what you have put forward is correct.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: On Mahasi Sayadaw's teaching

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:44 am
by Ben
Greetings Sean,

I suggest that you consult with Bhikkhu Pesala or Mikenz66, members here on DW, on the teachings of Mahasi Sayadaw.
kind regards,

Ben

Re: On Mahasi Sayadaw's teaching

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:53 am
by mikenz66
Hi Oceanfloor,

What you've said is the Buddha's teaching, not specific to any particular approach.

1. This is the third Noble Truth, explained in various places, including the Buddha's first discourse: SN 56.11.
"Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is remainderless fading and ceasing, giving up, relinquishing, letting go and rejecting, of that same craving.
2. The second discourse, SN 22.59, explains that nibbana involves discerning the impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not-self nature of the aggregates (form, feeling, perception, formations, conciousness):
"Any consciousness [or other aggregate] whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
However, accomplishing this is not straightforward, and as Retro says, involves the Eightfold Path, also explained in the Buddha's first discourse: SN 56.11.
"The way leading to cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is simply the noble eightfold path, that is to say, right view, right intention; right speech, right action, right livelihood; right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
Which, of course, is what any competent Dhamma teacher would teach.

Bhikkhu Pesala is a student of Mahasi Sayadaw, and has a web site here: http://www.aimwell.org/ containing a lot of teachings by Mahasi Sayadaw and his students.

:anjali:
Mike

Re: On Mahasi Sayadaw's teaching

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:57 am
by retrofuturist
:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: On Mahasi Sayadaw's teaching

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:36 am
by oceanfloor
mikenz66 wrote: However, accomplishing this is not straightforward, and as Retro says, involves the Eightfold Path, also explained in the Buddha's first discourse: SN 56.11.
"The way leading to cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is simply the noble eightfold path, that is to say, right view, right intention; right speech, right action, right livelihood; right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
Which, of course, is what any competent Dhamma teacher would teach.
I hope your teacher teaches to accomplish it straightforwardly.
Bhikkhu Pesala is a student of Mahasi Sayadaw, and has a web site here: http://www.aimwell.org/ containing a lot of teachings by Mahasi Sayadaw and his students.
Alright then, since you refer me to Bikkhu Pesala, I'll try to address further related inquiry via pm to him. Thank you.


Much metta,
:anjali:

Re: On Mahasi Sayadaw's teaching

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:31 am
by mikenz66
Hi Oceanfloor,

I'm sure Bhikkhu Pesala would be happy to answer you questions, but from previous conversations I understand that unless they have some very specifically personal question, he would rather people posted questions on the forum. Many people here have a practice that is based on Mahasi Sayadaw's approach. See this thread for a recent example: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=17756

:anjali:
Mike

Re: On Mahasi Sayadaw's teaching

Posted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:05 am
by Bhikkhu Pesala
Start by reading Practical Insight Meditation, then A Discourse on the Mālukyaputta Sutta. When you're ready for more detail, study In This Very Life (see my forum signature), slowly and thoroughly.

Any of the other Books by Mahāsī Sayādaw may be helpful, but it's too much for a beginner to take it all in.

Study and practice should go hand in hand. Chanmyay Sayādaw's Vipassanā Meditation Guidelines is also very helpful practical guidance for meditators.

Re: On Mahasi Sayadaw's teaching

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:33 am
by oceanfloor
mikenz66 wrote: I'm sure Bhikkhu Pesala would be happy to answer you questions, but from previous conversations I understand that unless they have some very specifically personal question, he would rather people posted questions on the forum.
Well, I don't have any personal question, it is all objective. Ok then, I'd post questions on the forum instead, starts from responding to retrofuturist's comment.
retrofuturist wrote: - Application of the Mahasi vipassana technique supports the pursuit of the Noble Eightfold Path.
Are you sure? How about the 8th Path, does Mahasi technique support it?

Metta always,
:anjali:

Re: On Mahasi Sayadaw's teaching

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:06 am
by tiltbillings
oceanfloor wrote: Are you sure? How about the 8th Path, does Mahasi technique support it?
You mean Samma Samadhi, Right Concentration?

Re: On Mahasi Sayadaw's teaching

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:47 am
by oceanfloor
tiltbillings wrote:
oceanfloor wrote: Are you sure? How about the 8th Path, does Mahasi technique support it?
You mean Samma Samadhi, Right Concentration?
Yes, samma-samadhi.

:anjali:

Re: On Mahasi Sayadaw's teaching

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:49 am
by tiltbillings
oceanfloor wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
oceanfloor wrote: Are you sure? How about the 8th Path, does Mahasi technique support it?
You mean Samma Samadhi, Right Concentration?
Yes, samma-samadhi.

:anjali:
The answer to your question, then, is yes.

Re: On Mahasi Sayadaw's teaching

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:48 am
by oceanfloor
tiltbillings wrote:
oceanfloor wrote:Yes, samma-samadhi.

:anjali:
The answer to your question, then, is yes.
Thank you for the answer. Care to explain why? Some specific quote or section from the link mikenz66 gave me, aimwell.org, will be much appreciated. Or maybe you have some other reference.

With metta,
:anjali:

Re: On Mahasi Sayadaw's teaching

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:06 am
by mikenz66
Hi OceanFloor,

Here are some threads that refer to U Panditia's book In This Very Life, which is hosted by Bhikkhu Pesala:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p212748
In part:
mikenz66 wrote: Approaches such as taught by Mahasi involve the development of strong levels of mindfulness and concentration as a basis for insight, which is what I take the point of Jhana to be. Since the concentration that the Mahasi approach involves is comparable to some of the "Sutta Jhana" models taught by some teachers, I don't see any particular disrespect the development of concentration, and, of course U Pandita discusses specifically the importance of the development of the Jhana factors in his "Vipassana Jhana" chapter here.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p211669
mikenz66 wrote:U Pandita defines what he calls vipassana jhana in In This Very Life in this chapter:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pan ... hanas.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
However you have to scroll down to the heading Jhana...

His definition is that the jhānic factors are present, and also some insight:
... [first four jhānic factors] ...
When these first four jhānic factors are present, the mind automatically becomes calm and peaceful, able to concentrate on what is happening without getting scattered or dispersed. This one-pointedness of mind is the fifth jhānic factor, samādhi, or concentration.

It is not sufficient to have all five factors present for one to say one has attained the first vipassanā jhāna. The mind must also come to penetrate into the Dhamma a little bit, enough to see the interrelationship of mind and matter. At this time we say that access to the first vipassanā jhāna has occurred.

A yogi whose mind is composed of these five jhānic factors will experience a new accuracy of mindfulness, a new level of success in sticking with the object. Intense rapture, happiness and comfort in the body may also arise. This could be the occasion for him or her to gloat over the wondrousness of the meditation practice. “Oh wow, I’m getting really precise and accurate. I even feel like I’m floating in the air!” You might recognize this reflection as a moment of attachment.
I think that this description is useful in as much as it points out that "vipassana medition" isn't "thinking about stuff", but is about building up mindfulness and samadhi (since samadhi is essential to to insight), and samadhi requires the jhana factors.

So, as I understand it, these "vipassana" methods, are the development of samadhi and vipassana in tandem, certainly not the separation...

:anjali:
Mike

Re: On Mahasi Sayadaw's teaching

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:37 pm
by Sam Vara
Hi Mike and everyone,

Is there such a thing as a directory of approved centres which teach retreats in the Mahasi style? I am based in the UK and have located one by just Googling it, and was wondering if anyone had any hints as to the best way of locating one.