judgment-free awareness

Discussion of Satipatthana bhavanā and Vipassana bhavana.

Re: judgment-free awareness

Postby Mkoll » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:23 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Context is everything.

And this is another important shortcoming of secular mindfulness practice. It is virtually divorced from the other important parts of Buddhism, that of virtue and wisdom. Sure, the teachers may give the Buddha's teachings some lip service but it is minimal at best and downright distorted at worst. NB that this is just my experience.

It's like removing the bran and germ from whole wheat berries when turning them into white flour.
We are not talking about 'secular mindfulness practice" here.

I never said you were.

All the same, I will try to remember not to quote another person's comment to make a point that's unrelated to their comment.
Peace,
James
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Postby last » Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:27 am

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:" ...may do little to help eradicate the root causes of the greedy..." So, basically the purpose of meditation practice is to get a perception that you can then think about as a way of gaining insight into it.

AN 10.60: Girimananda Sutta wrote:"And what is the perception of inconstancy? There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — reflects thus: 'Form is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, fabrications are inconstant, consciousness is inconstant.' Thus he remains focused on inconstancy with regard to the five clinging-aggregates. This, Ananda, is called the perception of inconstancy.

"And what is the perception of not-self? There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — reflects thus: 'The eye is not-self, forms are not-self; the ear is not-self, sounds are not-self; the nose is not-self, aromas are not-self; the tongue is not-self, flavors are not-self; the body is not-self, tactile sensations are not-self; the intellect is not-self, ideas are not-self.' Thus he remains focused on not-selfness with regard to the six inner & outer sense media. This is called the perception of not-self.
One can do that, and it has its place, but there is also simply directly seeing these things without the medium conceptual thinking, and it is that which is the transformative, freeing insight.


So you can directly see that the ideas are not-self, without the medium conceptual thinking?
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:06 am

last wrote:
So you can directly see that the ideas are not-self, without the medium conceptual thinking?
What can you see directly?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Postby last » Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:55 am

tiltbillings wrote:
last wrote:
So you can directly see that the ideas are not-self, without the medium conceptual thinking?
What can you see directly?


I never claimed to see anything directly, but you said that "there is also simply directly seeing these things without the medium conceptual thinking".

So instead of asking me, you should answer, which of the following can you see directly?

Form is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, fabrications are inconstant, consciousness is inconstant ;The eye is not-self, forms are not-self; the ear is not-self, sounds are not-self; the nose is not-self, aromas are not-self; the tongue is not-self, flavors are not-self; the body is not-self, tactile sensations are not-self; the intellect is not-self, ideas are not-self.
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:21 am

last wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
last wrote:
So you can directly see that the ideas are not-self, without the medium conceptual thinking?
What can you see directly?


I never claimed to see anything directly, but you said that "there is also simply directly seeing these things without the medium conceptual thinking".

So instead of asking me, you should answer, which of the following can you see directly?
I asked you to get some sort of handle on where you are coming from. That is still remains unclear.

Form is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, fabrications are inconstant, consciousness is inconstant ;The eye is not-self, forms are not-self; the ear is not-self, sounds are not-self; the nose is not-self, aromas are not-self; the tongue is not-self, flavors are not-self; the body is not-self, tactile sensations are not-self; the intellect is not-self, ideas are not-self.
The Buddha gave these instructions: "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya." What one sees directly, following these teachings, is the experience of interdependent rise and fall of the nama/rupa, the all. This is not an intellectual/conceptual process, as in: "oh, there is some "form" and that is anicca and it is anatta."

Take a look at this: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18656#p262125 and viewtopic.php?f=16&t=19334&start=160#p271272 It may give you some idea of what I am driving at.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Postby Sanjay PS » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:19 am

If one keeps on steadfastly walking on the Noble Eight Fold Path of Sila , Samadhi and Panna , all kinds of doubts and vexations gradually loose their hold (or rather correctly said, the letting go of all views becomes that much more easier )

Faith is an all important ingredient , which one should have in generous , unending copious measures in their hearts . The other day , i was reading about the last years of Venerable Ajhan Chah , the heart stirred so much , that the salt that rolled down , were nothing but the unshakeable drops of resolve , born of the nectar of faith.

i have come across quite a few posts that say the teachings of Venerable Ajhan Chah and other Great Saints of Dhamma is found to be contrary . If one only reads through using the lens of the language , then yes , the words will sound contrary . However , it is not with the lens of language or with the hearing aid of the ear that one should infer that what is being said , it is wisdom that makes the all important difference in imbibing the Noblest Teaching that one can ever come across . All we have to do is to keep reviewing our sincere resolve of our journey amidst the high mountains and valleys of Sila , Samadhi and Panna .

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Re: judgment-free awareness

Postby Sanjay PS » Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:22 pm

tiltbillings wrote:The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah STILL FOREST POOL

Patiently allowing utterly frustrating dilemmas to be present in our here-and-now, judgment-free awareness – this is the path of purification.” -- Ajahn Munindo


These words are so full of deep wisdom . Not easy to reach such depths, but the effort has to be on . Thank you Tilt for sharing these enriching quotes . Arhant , Venerable Ajhan Chah , as like all and every Arhant , stresses the most essential pre-requsiite in reaching such depths ; " Morality is the Father and Mother of Nature "

No preaching to it , no blind faith , no emotional bargains , just the fact of the matter , should someone really be serious in progressing on the path of Dhamma.

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Re: judgment-free awareness

Postby last » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:31 pm

A practical view on karma,
rebirth and nirvana from
Ajahn Chah

The Buddha comprehensively investigated
conditioned phenomena and so was able to let it
all go. The five khandhas were let go of, and the
knowing carried on merely as an impartial
observer of the process. If he experienced
something positive, he didn’t become positive
along with it. He simply observed and remained
aware. If he experienced something negative, he
didn’t become negative
. And why was that?
Because his mind had been cut free from such
causes and conditions. He’d penetrated the Truth.
The conditions leading to rebirth no longer
existed.
This is the knowing that is certain and reliable.
This is a mind that is truly at peace. This is what
is not born, doesn’t age, doesn’t get sick, and
doesn’t die.This is neither cause nor effect, nor
!dependent on cause and effect. It is independent
of the process of causal conditioning. The causes
then cease with no conditioning remaining. This
mind is above and beyond birth and death, above
and beyond happiness and sorrow, above and
beyond both good and evil. What can you say? It
is beyond the limitations of language to describe
it. All supporting conditions have ceased and any
attempt to describe it will merely lead to
attachment. The words used then become the
theory of the mind.

Source: ajahnchah.org


So judgment-free awareness is not born?
And it doesn't die?

It is born at the moment when a person stops responding to the objects sensed by the 6 senses.

It dies at the moment when a person starts responding to the same.
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Postby piotr » Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:22 am

Hi,

My problem with the topic are the chosen words in it. Miriam-Webster Dictionary defines judgement as:

    : an opinion or decision that is based on careful thought

    : the act or process of forming an opinion or making a decision after careful thought : the act of judging something or someone

    : the ability to make good decisions about what should be done

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/judgment

I have no idea why one would like to make oneself inconsiderate or foolish when it comes to decision what kind of actions one would like to take. Yet I understand that this is not the point of the quotes provided by tiltbillings. But it seems to me that the word choice done in OP is quite bad (Yes, this is a judgement :)).
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:27 am

In reference to the above two msgs, this section is Insight Meditation, which is what, I do believe, the OP quotes are about. It certainly is the context within which I am referencing them. I certainly do not need to buy into or defend Ven Chah's particular take on Buddhist soteriology, as we see it here. That is not what I am referencing in the quote by him in the OP. In this context, just to clarify, I am talking about meditation practice.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Postby last » Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:47 pm

tiltbillings wrote:I certainly do not need to buy into or defend Ven Chah's particular take on Buddhist soteriology, as we see it here. That is not what I am referencing in the quote by him in the OP. In this context, just to clarify, I am talking about meditation practice.


there is
also simply directly seeing these things without
the medium conceptual thinking, and it is that
which is the transformative, freeing insight.


In the above quote, you're basically trying to equate the "judgment-free awareness" with the "Nibbana", though a little less explicitly than Ajahn Chah here.
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Postby daverupa » Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:29 pm

last wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I certainly do not need to buy into or defend Ven Chah's particular take on Buddhist soteriology, as we see it here. That is not what I am referencing in the quote by him in the OP. In this context, just to clarify, I am talking about meditation practice.


there is
also simply directly seeing these things without
the medium conceptual thinking, and it is that
which is the transformative, freeing insight.


In the above quote, you're basically trying to equate the "judgment-free awareness" with the "Nibbana", though a little less explicitly than Ajahn Chah here.


I don't think so; the transformative, freeing insight isn't a single event nor is it equivalent to nibbana, but instead these sorts of things form the meat of the practice, not the goal.

Ajahn Chah, on the other hand, says that this mind of bare awareness is beyond conditions, which I think is going too far, but in translation it's possible that there is nuance I'm not able to pick up. "This mind is above and beyond birth and death" just grates...
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:56 pm

last wrote:
there is
also simply directly seeing these things without
the medium conceptual thinking, and it is that
which is the transformative, freeing insight.


In the above quote, you're basically trying to equate the "judgment-free awareness" with the "Nibbana", though a little less explicitly than Ajahn Chah here.
Goodness. You are telling me what I doing, but since what I am doing, is what I am doing, I believe I can safely say that what I am doing is not making that equation. So, we can set that aside.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:57 pm

daverupa wrote:
I don't think so; the transformative, freeing insight isn't a single event nor is it equivalent to nibbana, but instead these sorts of things form the meat of the practice, not the goal.

Ajahn Chah, on the other hand, says that this mind of bare awareness is beyond conditions, which I think is going too far, but in translation it's possible that there is nuance I'm not able to pick up. "This mind is above and beyond birth and death" just grates...
I agree with this.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Postby last » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:46 pm

the transformative freeing insight isn't a single event


what do you need freeing insight for, once you have experienced the "tilakhana". You need to see the god just once to believe in its existence.
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Postby daverupa » Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:39 pm

last wrote:
the transformative freeing insight isn't a single event


what do you need freeing insight for, once you have experienced the "tilakhana". You need to see the god just once to believe in its existence.


To be brief: the presence of right view is not, thereby and instantaneously, the presence of awakening because there are underlying tendencies, asavas, and so forth. So things happen in stages, it takes effort, and they accrue over time.

AN 4.94 wrote:"As for the individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, his duty is to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental) fermentations.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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