judgment-free awareness

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
Spiny Norman
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by Spiny Norman »

sphairos wrote: And I would also say that it - the very judgement-free awareness - is one of the main features of psychoanalytical treatment.
I first came across the "technique" of fully accepting the present in encounter groups, around 30 years ago. But I'm not clear whether "judgement-free awareness" in this context is actually referring to that approach.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by Spiny Norman »

Sylvester wrote: I suspect that part of the problem in understanding how "grasping at the sign" is to be negated falls much on how Right Effort is interpreted.
Yes, and also how "judgement-free awareness" is interpreted. I'm not sure I get the connection to the Bahiya passage, which seems more like "proliferation-free awareness"?
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Sylvester
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by Sylvester »

danieLion wrote:

Doesn't "judgment-free awareness" suffer from the same defects that Locke's tabula rasa and Rousseau's noble savage/state of nature theories do? Perhaps it's more helpful to just distinguish between skilful judging and unskilful judging, via ardency, alertness, mindfulness, setting aside greed and distress with regard to the world and yoniso manasikara?
Kindly,

Hi ya DL

We should be safe, as long as we bear in mind that the definition of mindfulness includes vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ - giving up/to give up grief and hankering with regard to the world. So, what is the loka/world if not the 4 - ie body, feelings, mind and states? We are supposed to stop fretting over states, which the suttas would include the Hindrances.

One of the odd things about Right Effort is that MN 117 paints it as having a role only in view, resolve, speech, action and livelihood. It's not mentioned in connection with mindfulness or concentration. Is it too coarse for the Concentration Aggregate?

Take a look at the definition of Right Effort in SN 45.8 -
And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort.
The problem I find with most interpretations or applications of Right Effort is that they focus on the words in red. If you read the Pali, the sequence is somewhat different -
Katamo ca bhikkhave, sammāvāyāmo: idha bhikkhave, bhikkhu anuppannānaṃ pāpakānaṃ akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ anuppādāya chandaṃ janeti vāyamati viriyaṃ ārabhati cittaṃ paggaṇhāti padahati. Uppannānaṃ pāpakānaṃ akusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ pahānāya chandaṃ janeti vāyamati viriyaṃ ārabhati cittaṃ paggaṇhāti padahati. Anuppannānaṃ kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ uppādāya chandaṃ janeti vāyamati viriyaṃ ārabhati cittaṃ paggaṇhāti padahati. Uppannānaṃ kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ ṭhitiyā asammosāya bhiyyobhāvāya vepullāya bhāvanāya pāripūriyā chandaṃ janeti vāyamati viriyaṃ ārabhati cittaṃ paggaṇhāti padahati, ayaṃ vuccati bhikkhave, sammāvāyāmo.
Do you see how the sequence is reversed in the Pali to read "For the sake of ABC, he verb, verb, verb, verb." While the standard translations into idiomatic English is perfect, the loss of the Pali structure in translation hides the emphasis. The "For the sake of ABC" is the subordinate clause in Pali, while the principal clause concerns the verbs "he generates desire/chandaṃ janeti" etc etc. Right Effort is not so much concerned with how one suppresses defilements, but is primarily with the development of the motivation and desire. How one principally defeats the defilements in satipaṭṭhāna is not Right Effort (which is the precursor) but more importantly the role of the Wisdom Aggregate.
Last edited by Sylvester on Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sylvester
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by Sylvester »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Sylvester wrote: I suspect that part of the problem in understanding how "grasping at the sign" is to be negated falls much on how Right Effort is interpreted.
Yes, and also how "judgement-free awareness" is interpreted. I'm not sure I get the connection to the Bahiya passage, which seems more like "proliferation-free awareness"?

Hi

Based on those suttas that describe the opposites of "grasping at the sign", I think the Bahiya meditation is broader that just "proliferation-free awareness". It would have to include the awareness free of the 2 anusayas of lust and aversion.
sphairos
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by sphairos »

Mr Man wrote:
sphairos wrote:Mr Man,
why should one practice "within the discipline and the tradition" and consider that - and no other thing - to be the context? Who says that?

Hi sphairos
That is the context from which Ajahn Chah taught and Ajahn Munindo teaches. Their teaching/insight comes from practicing and living in a certain way.
Hi Mr Man,

why do you think this is the context? Are you a psychic, who knows what is on everyone's mind here? Or, may be, you only know what is on your mind? Can you prove that what you think is the context is the context for everyone here?
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Mr Man
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by Mr Man »

sphairos wrote:
why do you think this is the context? Are you a psychic, who knows what is on everyone's mind here? Or, may be, you only know what is on your mind? Can you prove that what you think is the context is the context for everyone here?
Hi sphairos
The context of the original quotes (in the OP).
sphairos
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by sphairos »

Mr Man wrote:
sphairos wrote:
why do you think this is the context? Are you a psychic, who knows what is on everyone's mind here? Or, may be, you only know what is on your mind? Can you prove that what you think is the context is the context for everyone here?
Hi sphairos
The context of the original quotes (in the OP).
Don't you think that the context is what was on tiltbillings' and other people mind(s) when he quoted those passages and when they was saying what they wanted? Can't you grant that it's not you who defines what the context is, other people also take part in this process?
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kirk5a
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by kirk5a »

Sylvester wrote:Very good. So, MN 2 lays out 7 methods for dealing with the cankers, so pre-emptive, some reactive and some non-reactive. Does it suggest that judgment-free awareness has no place in the MN 2 schema?
Might depend on what a particular teacher means by "judgment-free awareness" - is it a completely passive practice?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Dan74
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by Dan74 »

Perhaps it would be useful to explore deeper what is meant by "judgment" here.

The immediate misinterpretation is a 'free-for-all, anything goes' which has already been debunked. But it seems to me that a much deep sense of what judgment is, is assumed. For instance, we generally judge with a reference to self, one's interests, opinions, etc. An awareness free from such judgment is possible only where there is a serious letting go of a sense of self, of a knower that judges. This letting go can only happen when the defilements have lots their hold on one to some extent, otherwise there is plenty of judgment.
Last edited by Dan74 on Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mr Man
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by Mr Man »

sphairos wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
sphairos wrote:
why do you think this is the context? Are you a psychic, who knows what is on everyone's mind here? Or, may be, you only know what is on your mind? Can you prove that what you think is the context is the context for everyone here?
Hi sphairos
The context of the original quotes (in the OP).
Don't you think that the context is what was on tiltbillings' and other people mind(s) when he quoted those passages and when they was saying what they wanted? Can't you grant that it's not you who defines what the context is, other people also take part in this process?
Hi sphairos
I don't know what was on tiltbillings or other people minds but I do think the context of the teachings given by Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Munindo (& others) is relevant and important. If you think otherwise or if you think my view (or definition) of the context is wrong so be it. Who knows maybe someone else finds my input interesting/helpful.
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Mr Man
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by Mr Man »

Dan74 wrote:Perhaps it would be useful to explore deeper what is meant by "judgment" here.
Is the "judgment" referring to what we might call the second voice or feeling. The one which is saying. "It shouldn't be like this" "I don't want this" or "I like this" "I'm going to buy into this" or "why can't it be like this". This is distinct from the judgement "this is wholesome/unwholesome" "this is skilful/unskilful".

In Ajahn Munindo's quote we also have "Patiently allowing", which to me shows a level of commitment, resolution and effort (in contrast to impatient). When we get pulled into frustrating dilemmas we take a step back we don't buy into them or indulge them but we allow them to be. We take note.
beeblebrox
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by beeblebrox »

sphairos wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
sphairos wrote:Mr Man,
why should one practice "within the discipline and the tradition" and consider that - and no other thing - to be the context? Who says that?

Hi sphairos
That is the context from which Ajahn Chah taught and Ajahn Munindo teaches. Their teaching/insight comes from practicing and living in a certain way.
Hi Mr Man,

why do you think this is the context? Are you a psychic, who knows what is on everyone's mind here? Or, may be, you only know what is on your mind? Can you prove that what you think is the context is the context for everyone here?
Hi all,

There seems to be a misunderstanding of what "context" means. It'd probably be good for the discussion if there was a clarification...

From a dictionary:
1. the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influencing its meaning or effect: You have misinterpreted my remark because you took it out of context.

2. the set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc.
It seems reasonable to me when Mr. Man said that the context of what Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Munindo taught should be seen within the practice of a certain tradition, i.e. the Buddha's Dhamma.

:anjali:
danieLion
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by danieLion »

Hi Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:Do you see how the sequence is reversed in the Pali to read "For the sake of ABC, he verb, verb, verb, verb."
Yes, I do see, thanks to your exposition.
Sylvester wrote:While the standard translations into idiomatic English is perfect, the loss of the Pali structure in translation hides the emphasis. The "For the sake of ABC" is the subordinate clause in Pali, while the principal clause concerns the verbs "he generates desire/chandaṃ janeti" etc etc. Right Effort is not so much concerned with how one suppresses defilements, but is primarily with the development of the motivation and desire. How one principally defeats the defilements in satipaṭṭhāna is not Right Effort (which is the precursor) but more importantly the role of the Wisdom Aggregate.
This seems to me to be similar to what Thanissaro is saying in his book Right Mindfulness.
Kindly,
dL
Sylvester
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by Sylvester »

kirk5a wrote:
Sylvester wrote:Very good. So, MN 2 lays out 7 methods for dealing with the cankers, so pre-emptive, some reactive and some non-reactive. Does it suggest that judgment-free awareness has no place in the MN 2 schema?
Might depend on what a particular teacher means by "judgment-free awareness" - is it a completely passive practice?
Based on the 2 quotes in the OP, this looks unlikely. In both cases, the faculty to discriminate between nice versus not is still present, it appears. As long as it is present, it won't be completely passive, but it will be passive enough to simply let things be.
Spiny Norman
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Re: judgment-free awareness

Post by Spiny Norman »

Mr Man wrote:
Dan74 wrote:Perhaps it would be useful to explore deeper what is meant by "judgment" here.
Is the "judgment" referring to what we might call the second voice or feeling. The one which is saying. "It shouldn't be like this" "I don't want this" or "I like this" "I'm going to buy into this" or "why can't it be like this". This is distinct from the judgement "this is wholesome/unwholesome" "this is skilful/unskilful".
One could say it's being mindful of how we react to experience. But to be mindful effectively there needs to be an initial acceptance of that experience.
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