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Body v. Mind

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:10 am
by Spiny O'Norman
Looking at vipassana practice in the context of the four frames of reference, my approach to vipassana tends to focus on mind and mind-objects - but I get the impression that many people focus on body and sensations?

I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Spiny

Re: Body v. Mind

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:17 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Spiny,

My thoughts are that they all fall under the banner of satipatthana, so one approach is neither right nor wrong.

That said, we had an interesting discussion about the sequencing of satipatthana steps and whether there was any logical or sequential aspect to the way they're sequenced in the Satipatthana Sutta but I can't see to find it at the moment.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Body v. Mind

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:19 am
by Sanghamitta
Bodily sensations are the starting point for many who practice Vipassana. But all of the kandhas arise together in accordance with kamma vipaka and are not separate.

Re: Body v. Mind

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:38 am
by Spiny O'Norman
Sanghamitta wrote:Bodily sensations are the starting point for many who practice Vipassana.
I'm sure you're right, but do you know why this is? It seems to me that mental objects are more immediately accessible?

Spiny

Re: Body v. Mind

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:44 am
by Sanghamitta
Well there you go. It seems to me that bodily sensations more readily accessible. I think that the Buddha allowed for both those possibilities. He was teaching a wide cross section of people with different needs and temperaments.

Re: Body v. Mind

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:12 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Spiny,

Here we go, I found it...

Satipatthana sequencing
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=484" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Body v. Mind

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:23 am
by Ben
Sanghamitta wrote:Well there you go. It seems to me that bodily sensations more readily accessible.
That's right Valerie. Their changing nature isn't so rapid as mental contents and their salient characteristics of pleasant, unpleasant and neutral are more easily observed as objective phenomena. Also, according to the Burmese insight traditions, the forward order of paticcasamuppada (dependent origination) can be interrupted between vedana (sensation) and tanha (craving).
It should also be pointed out that while a lot of people, particularly in my own tradition, start with vedananupassana (observation of sensation), as one progresses, one also engages in the other satipatthanas. Having trained in vedananupassana for many years I can say that it has been excellent training for the other satipatthanas.
kind regards

Ben

Re: Body v. Mind

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:02 pm
by Hoo
Ben wrote: ...the forward order of paticcasamuppada (dependent origination) can be interrupted between vedana (sensation) and tanha (craving).
It should also be pointed out that while a lot of people, particularly in my own tradition, start with vedananupassana (observation of sensation), as one progresses, one also engages in the other satipatthanas. Having trained in vedananupassana for many years I can say that it has been excellent training for the other satipatthanas...
Thank you Ben for including the English with the Pali. :) That makes the post readable for me. I have no knowledge of Pali. I won't derail the post with my views on learning another language in order to understand and practice effectively. Suffice to say that I just don't read posts that include a lot of untranslated Pali. Maybe I'll put that in a different post someday. :)

Hoo

Re: Body v. Mind

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:11 pm
by Ben
No problem Hoo!
Do you know about this dictionary: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ??
I find its an invaluable resource.
In future I'll try to be mindful and provide english translations of pali words I use.
kind regards

Ben

Re: Body v. Mind

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:12 pm
by Sanghamitta
I can understand that to some degree Hoo. However as it frequently takes half a page of English to accurately translate a single term in Pali, many of us find it easier to learn a little Pali, the basic terms and concepts at least.

Re: Body v. Mind

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:48 pm
by Spiny O'Norman
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Spiny,

Here we go, I found it...

Satipatthana sequencing
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=484" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)

Fascinating thread. I think I might be a "nervous introvert", in which case mental objects would make sense. :smile:

Spiny

Re: Body v. Mind

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:56 pm
by tiltbillings
Spiny O'Norman wrote:

Fascinating thread. I couldn't decide whether I was "languid" or not though. :smile:

Spiny
Languid:

Re: Body v. Mind

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:59 pm
by Spiny O'Norman
Sanghamitta wrote:Well there you go. It seems to me that bodily sensations more readily accessible. I think that the Buddha allowed for both those possibilities. He was teaching a wide cross section of people with different needs and temperaments.
Good point. While I do sometimes focus on just one of the four frames, I am mostly not exclusive and will notice whatever arises - so I'm aware of all the 4 frames in varying degrees. Maybe it's that there is more going on with mental objects so for me they seem easier to work with.

Spiny

Re: Body v. Mind

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:15 pm
by Hoo
Ben wrote:... http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ?? ...
I find its an invaluable resource...
Thanks Ben :) I didn't have that link and it looks less cumbersome than the one I was using. I'll post my take on learning another language in another post. EDIT: I see there's been lots already posted on that topic so I think I'll let it be :) It's just my view anyway, and no one needs more views, IMHO.

Hoo

Re: Body v. Mind

Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:25 pm
by Phra Chuntawongso
Come on Tilt.This could be laying down :zzz: meditation.Poor misunderstood bear.