Whatever method you opt for, it is going to take a great deal of work. Also, I have no idea what is meant by the "suttanta" method. It really does not exist. What exists are various ways of putting the sutta teachings into practice as we find with the Goenka and Mahasi Sayadaw methods and others.danieLion wrote: but I am also interested in the "suttanta" method and ways of deepening practice at home to at least approximate retreat like conditions
Goenka technique
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Re: Goenka technique
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Goenka technique
Hi Retro,
There, of course, a number of interpretations of how to practise according to the Suttas (which personally I don't see as a problem, ---- different approaches seem to suit different people at different times, which is presumably why there are so many different meditation objects mentioned in the Suttas).
Mike
Naturally, I beg to differ. My approach is based very solidly on the Satipatthana and other Suttas. (As Tilt has often pointed out by reference to various Suttas).retrofuturist wrote: Mike's not confused - that's just not his approach.
There, of course, a number of interpretations of how to practise according to the Suttas (which personally I don't see as a problem, ---- different approaches seem to suit different people at different times, which is presumably why there are so many different meditation objects mentioned in the Suttas).
Are you saying that no-one I mentioned above teaches according to the Suttas?retrofuturist wrote: I did like your question though, and I'm interested to hear if anyone responds... I don't know of any, myself.
Mike
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Re: Goenka technique
Greetings Mike,
To quote something I've said previously in relation to the suttanta approach, "The Sutta Pitaka becomes the basis for instruction and other sources (e.g. teachers, commentaries) have value to the extent that they illuminate rather than obfuscate what is contained in the Sutta Pitaka. The results may end up being similar to that of Mahavihara Theravada (as one would hope) but it's a different process of getting there."
So, in other words, someone follows the sutta as their primary instruction, rather than following a teacher's method, derived from the suttas.
To quote again, this time from thereductor, "I was thinking that we often lose sight of how the canon and the Theravada are related. That is, the Theravada is a supplement to the canon, and not the other way around. So where a mode of practice can be effectively defended with canonical material it should be considered as valid. To insist that such a position is invalid because it runs counter to the tradition is, to me, the making of inappropriate strife. And while I do concur that the canon is not the most detailed manual, I hold that the details within its pages are sufficient for completion of the goal. Whether or not a particular practitioner can ferret out the information and act on it to the degree necessary to accomplish the goal is a matter of personal conditioning."
Anyway, to tie this back to discussion on the Goenka technique, as I said earlier, I do not see it as being inconsistent with the suttas.
Metta,
Retro.
That's good to hear, I wasn't suggesting otherwise.mikenz66 wrote:Naturally, I beg to differ. My approach is based very solidly on the Satipatthana and other Suttas. (As Tilt has often pointed out by reference to various Suttas).
No, I wasn't suggesting that either.mikenz66 wrote:Are you saying that no-one I mentioned above teaches according to the Suttas?
To quote something I've said previously in relation to the suttanta approach, "The Sutta Pitaka becomes the basis for instruction and other sources (e.g. teachers, commentaries) have value to the extent that they illuminate rather than obfuscate what is contained in the Sutta Pitaka. The results may end up being similar to that of Mahavihara Theravada (as one would hope) but it's a different process of getting there."
So, in other words, someone follows the sutta as their primary instruction, rather than following a teacher's method, derived from the suttas.
To quote again, this time from thereductor, "I was thinking that we often lose sight of how the canon and the Theravada are related. That is, the Theravada is a supplement to the canon, and not the other way around. So where a mode of practice can be effectively defended with canonical material it should be considered as valid. To insist that such a position is invalid because it runs counter to the tradition is, to me, the making of inappropriate strife. And while I do concur that the canon is not the most detailed manual, I hold that the details within its pages are sufficient for completion of the goal. Whether or not a particular practitioner can ferret out the information and act on it to the degree necessary to accomplish the goal is a matter of personal conditioning."
Anyway, to tie this back to discussion on the Goenka technique, as I said earlier, I do not see it as being inconsistent with the suttas.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Goenka technique
So what you're suggesting a preference for a no-teacher approach?
Mike
Mike
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Re: Goenka technique
Greetings Mike,
Taking "no teacher" would not be in accord with the Triple Gem refuge.
“That which I have proclaimed and made known, Ānanda, as the Teaching and the Discipline (Dhamma-Vinaya), that shall be your Master when I am gone” (DN 16).
Metta,
Retro.
It's taking the Buddha as one's teacher, and regarding others as kalayana-mittas who may be able to render assistance in the teacher's absence.mikenz66 wrote:So what you're suggesting a preference for a no-teacher approach?
Taking "no teacher" would not be in accord with the Triple Gem refuge.
“That which I have proclaimed and made known, Ānanda, as the Teaching and the Discipline (Dhamma-Vinaya), that shall be your Master when I am gone” (DN 16).
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Goenka technique
Hmm, a no-live-teachers-approach then?
Mike
Mike
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Re: Goenka technique
Greetings Mike,
I would consider anyone who had an interest in my spiritual well-being as a kalayana-mitta, whether they be dead or alive, in meat-space or cyber-space.
Accordingly, I could quite happily learn from Mr. Goenka, mikenz66, Ajahn Brahm, Jack Kornfield, Ben, Ñāṇa, Buddhaghosa, Sylvester, Ajahn Chah, Mahasi Sayadaw, one of Mr. Goenka's ATs or Tiltbillings at any point in time.... but my root instruction will always be the Buddha's doctrine.
Metta,
Retro.
That depends on whether you regard kalayana-mittas as teachers, I guess. As Ajahn Chah said, "everything is teaching us".mikenz66 wrote:Hmm, a no-live-teachers-approach then?
I would consider anyone who had an interest in my spiritual well-being as a kalayana-mitta, whether they be dead or alive, in meat-space or cyber-space.
Accordingly, I could quite happily learn from Mr. Goenka, mikenz66, Ajahn Brahm, Jack Kornfield, Ben, Ñāṇa, Buddhaghosa, Sylvester, Ajahn Chah, Mahasi Sayadaw, one of Mr. Goenka's ATs or Tiltbillings at any point in time.... but my root instruction will always be the Buddha's doctrine.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Goenka technique
I thought/read somewhere you could become awakened without even knowing about Buddhism (but knowing just helped expedite). Is this wrong view? Don't by shy. I am getting comfortable, finally, with confronting my wrong views--usually.
Re: Goenka technique
Ajahn Chah did say that... however Ajahn Chah's main teacher was Ajahn Mun. Ajahn Chah in turn had scores of students to whom he was the teacher. Including Ajahn Brahm and Jack Kornfield.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,
That depends on whether you regard kalayana-mittas as teachers, I guess. As Ajahn Chah said, "everything is teaching us".mikenz66 wrote:Hmm, a no-live-teachers-approach then?
I would consider anyone who had an interest in my spiritual well-being as a kalayana-mitta, whether they be dead or alive, in meat-space or cyber-space.
Accordingly, I could quite happily learn from Mr. Goenka, mikenz66, Ajahn Brahm, Jack Kornfield, Ben, Ñāṇa, Buddhaghosa, Sylvester, Ajahn Chah, Mahasi Sayadaw, one of Mr. Goenka's ATs or Tiltbillings at any point in time.... but my root instruction will always be the Buddha's doctrine.
Metta,
Retro.
Last edited by PeterB on Fri May 27, 2011 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Goenka technique
Greetings danieLion,
(though perhaps questions of this ilk ought to be explored in separate topics?)
Metta,
Retro.
The Buddha could not envisage any path to enlightenment which was devoid of the Four Noble Truths.danieLion wrote:I thought/read somewhere you could become awakened without even knowing about Buddhism (but knowing just helped expedite). Is this wrong view? Don't by shy. I am getting comfortable, finally, with confronting my wrong views--usually.
(though perhaps questions of this ilk ought to be explored in separate topics?)
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Goenka technique
I certainly think it would be a good idea if input into this thread which is primarily about the Goenka approach was largely from either inquirers, or from people with extensive experience of same.
Re: Goenka technique
oh. i'm interrupting. sorry. for instance threads on the Buddha as ultimate teacher/suttanta approach and/or one on something on the possibility of "solo" awakening and/or if it is possible to know the Four Truths solo?retrofuturist wrote:Greetings danieLion,
The Buddha could not envisage any path to enlightenment which was devoid of the Four Noble Truths.danieLion wrote:I thought/read somewhere you could become awakened without even knowing about Buddhism (but knowing just helped expedite). Is this wrong view? Don't by shy. I am getting comfortable, finally, with confronting my wrong views--usually.
(though perhaps questions of this ilk ought to be explored in separate topics?)
Metta,
Retro.
until tomorrow, good night
Re: Goenka technique
I think the fact that the Buddha bequeathed THREE jewels danieLion Buddha Dhamma AND Sangha should be seen as pretty conclusive.
And I dont think he envisaged Sangha as sending messages to others merely. Or in setting up of another institution. Or a heirachy.
He meant the whole gamut of interraction, the sharing of space and mingling of breath.
The gross and the subtle.
In the profundity of his wisdom he knew that there was a whole area of our functioning which had to be in gear with the whole, that area in which we are social beings. Even though that social functioning had to be enhanced from time to time in withdrawing from it...in retreat.
And I dont think he envisaged Sangha as sending messages to others merely. Or in setting up of another institution. Or a heirachy.
He meant the whole gamut of interraction, the sharing of space and mingling of breath.
The gross and the subtle.
In the profundity of his wisdom he knew that there was a whole area of our functioning which had to be in gear with the whole, that area in which we are social beings. Even though that social functioning had to be enhanced from time to time in withdrawing from it...in retreat.
Re: Goenka technique
By Ajahn Chah's own account in Food for the Heart, and from his disciple Paul Breiter, he only stayed with Ajahn Mun for 3 days.PeterB wrote: however Ajahn Chah's main teacher was Ajahn Mun. Ajahn Chah in turn had scores of students to whom he was the teacher. Including Ajahn Brahm and Jack Kornfield.
http://wanderingdhamma.wordpress.com/20 ... -teaching/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;In Everything Arises, Everything Falls Away, Paul Breiter discusses the relationship between Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Mun. “Ajahn Chah spent only a few days with him but afterward always spoke of himself as a disciple of Ajahn Mun, saying, ‘If a person with good eyes stands close to something, he sees it. If his eyes are bad, it doesn’t matter how long he’s there.’
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.
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Re: Goenka technique
Possibly, by not knowing Buddhism by name, but having rediscovered what is essential.danieLion wrote:I thought/read somewhere you could become awakened without even knowing about Buddhism (but knowing just helped expedite). Is this wrong view? Don't by shy. I am getting comfortable, finally, with confronting my wrong views--usually.
An American born Buddhist monk, Thanisaro Bhikku, published a book called "Wings To Awakening". You can find a free copy by Googling. The theme of the book is that the Buddha knew that his teachings would eventually get distorted and die out. The Buddha made several lists describing qualities a person could develop. The most famous of these lists is The 8 Fold Path. His theory was that if a person worked to develop all of the qualities on any of those lists the quest would eventually force them to rediscover and relearn his teachings.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.