Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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Alexei
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Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Alexei » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:37 am


rowyourboat
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:38 pm

Ah the wonders of brilliant white blissful samadhi, or feelings of being connected with all beings!!!

"I teach one thing and one only: suffering and the end of suffering."

Those people who practice to gain something are going to be disappointed (nor have they understood suffering or the escape from it).

with metta
:anjali:
With Metta

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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:15 am


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Alexei
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Alexei » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:39 am


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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Alexei » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:14 pm


Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Parth » Thu Jan 20, 2011 6:51 pm

This is Jhana alright but what about Vipassana ? and if people dont change it certainly is not stream entry.

Metta

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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Nyana » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:46 pm


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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Alexei » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:12 am


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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:37 pm

Hi Alexi

It is a very complex area of the dhamma.

Firstly- to a mind which grasps onto everything as sukha and delights in things (ie -delights in 'arising'), absence and cessation seems like a unproductive, horrible, useless thing. So the nature of nibbana is not something to be discussed with just everyone. It can be discussed with someone who has an initial understanding of dukkha (that is that every moment which arises is dukkha)- a discussion on how that dukkha comes to a cessation. Remember the Buddha said Dukkha is 'to be known', and that people do not know dukkha- here he was talking about a level of dukkha deeper than mental suffering.

Next- the person you mentioned seems to see this as a negative result- suggesting to me that he didnt go through the successive vipassana nana which culminates in such an experience, or perhaps very rarely, simply did not have the time to get his thinking organized around the insights that he had. If he could see the suffering or arising (and passing away) which he would have done if he went the whole hog, he would have seen the delights of complete cessation. It can also happen that some people do not fully integrate the experience they have with the insight conceptually- this happens during the hot-house conditions of intense vipassana retreats, when practice rather than conceptualization is stressed. So their formulation of what happened is based on the level of understanding they had before they went on retreat. You might wonder how this happens- vipssana occurs on a very deep level (sub/unconscious)- it would be correct to say the vipassana 'does you' rather than the other way around (and really no one can stake personal claim on the insights that arise in the process- even enlightenment 'just' happens- you do not do it).

It is also possible that the teacher misjudged his level of progress. This sometimes happens due to the teacher's lack of experience and also the meditators inability to appreciate and put into words what he/she is experiencing. So I believe it is very important to have a good conceptual framework of dukkha and its cessation before anyone attemptoms serious vipassana. Discussing and understanding (as much as possible) the Nibbana sermons by Ven Katukurunde Nananda is a good way to achieve this in my opinion. The Buddha mentions that Right View, discussion and learning, samatha and vipassana all play a part in final liberation.

with metta

Matheesha
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby kirk5a » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:52 pm

I read the rest of Rod Bucknell's observations at the link posted with great interest. It seemed the insight developed when he started observing how thinking mind actually functions, and examining the nature of "self." Very interesting.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby IanAnd » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:09 pm

"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Parth » Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:40 pm


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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Nyana » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:08 pm


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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Nyana » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:32 pm


rowyourboat
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:21 am

With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Alexei » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:42 pm


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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:47 am

Hi Alexei,

Thank you for that quote. Yes, the blackness does not denote anything in particular.. It is possible to be mislead by it. It can arise during samatha or vipassana. This is why it is important to do vipassana under a teacher who can guide you and knows the vipassana nanas well enough to know where you are on the path.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Nyana » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:52 pm


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kirk5a
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby kirk5a » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:28 pm

I'm remaining open minded to all input, but the idea that stream-entry, at least, requires a meditative cessation of all experience - I just don't see how that fits in with accounts of stream-enterers in the suttas. Some of whom are just listening to the Buddha speak, and clearly have no meditative skills, in an advanced concentration sense, at all. Take Anathapindika the householder. He attained stream entry after hearing the Buddha for the first time. Then many years later, near the very end of Anathapindika's life, Sariputta gives him instructions that are more in the realm of meditation practice per se, and Anathapindika remarks that he has never heard such instruction before. So... I just don't see how it can be said, in cases like that, there must have been meditative cessation of all experience.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

For the higher levels past stream-entry... maybe a stronger case could be made.

EDIT: Further detail on what the Buddha said to Anathapindika at their first meeting.
http://www.sravastiabbey.org/about/sravastistory.html

Then the Blessed One, leading Anathapindika step by step, spoke to him of giving, of virtue, of the heavens, of the perils, vanity, and defiling nature of sensual pleasures, of the benefits of renunciation. When he saw that Anathapindika was ready in heart and mind—pliable, unobstructed, uplifted and serene—he explained to him the teaching that is unique to the Enlightened Ones: the Four Noble Truths of suffering, its cause, its cessation, and the path.

With that, the dust-free, stainless eye of truth (Dharmacakkhu) opened for Anathapindika: “Whatever has the nature of arising, all that has the nature of cessation.” Anathapindika had understood the truth of the Dharma, had overcome all doubts, and was without any wavering; certain in his mind, he was now self-dependent in the Master's Dispensation. He had realized the path and fruit of stream-entry (sotapatti).
Last edited by kirk5a on Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Postby Nyana » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm



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