Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Parth »

Hi starter,

All that is fine to state but would tend to agree with Matheesha.

Regards

Parth
rowyourboat
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by rowyourboat »

starter wrote:Hm, I happened to read the following which is relevant to this thread and would like to share with the friends:

"When I returned to practice in Ajahn Chah’s community following more than a year of silent Mahasi retreat, I recounted all of these experiences—dissolving my body into light, profound insights into emptiness, hours of vast stillness and freedom. Ajahn Chah understood and appreciated them from his own deep wisdom. Then he smiled and said, “Well, something else to let go of.”

-- Jack Kornfield "Enlightenments" (in this article he compares the different views / experiences of enlightenment in different traditions -- Mahasi Sayadaw vs. Ajahn Chah)

http://www.inquiringmind.com/Articles/E ... ments.html

Metta to all,

Starter
Hi Starter,

Yes, Ajhan Chah, did not say 'pitch black emptines, bah, what nonsense!' - instead he gives the instructions to take the next step- to subdue the ego, to let go of the self and attainments belonging to that self.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Nyana
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Nyana »

rowyourboat wrote:We know that nibbana is an unconditioned (asankhata) state. We also know that states like samadhi and sati (and vinnana) are conditioned states. Therefore to characterise nibbana using conditioned states like these is not appropriate.
Nibbāna isn't a "state."

All the best,

Geoff
Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Parth »

Nana / Geoff wrote :
Nibbāna isn't a "state."
whatever you say to define it, you would be wrong / could be disputed easily.

Metta

Parth
Kenshou
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Kenshou »

So Parth, do you know anything about the goal of Buddhist practice? If so, in light of what you have said, how did you ever get it? And if you don't, why are you a Buddhist?

You don't have to answer these questions, it's rhetorical, but hopefully you see my point.
Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Parth »

Dear Kenshou,

Point taken but, point remains u cant define it :smile:

Metta

Parth
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by tiltbillings »

parth wrote:Nana / Geoff wrote :
Nibbāna isn't a "state."
whatever you say to define it, you would be wrong / could be disputed easily.

Metta

Parth
Nibbana is the desrtuction of greed, hatred and delusion. Is that wrong?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Kenshou »

The point may remain, but it remains badly thought out.
Nyana
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Nyana »

parth wrote:whatever you say to define it, you would be wrong
Nonsense. Nibbāna is explicitly and clearly defined in the canon as the elimination of passion, aggression, and delusion. SN 38.1 Nibbānapañhā Sutta:
  • “‘Nibbāna, nibbāna,’ friend Sāriputta, it is said. What now is nibbāna?”

    “The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion: this, friend, is called nibbāna.”
And the nibbāna component with fuel remaining (saupādisesa nibbānadhātu) is defined in exactly the same terms in Itivuttaka 2.44 Nibbānadhātu Sutta:
  • And what is the nibbāna component with fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose outflows have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of existence, and is liberated through right gnosis. His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he is cognizant of the agreeable and the disagreeable, and experiences pleasure and pain. His elimination of passion, aggression, and delusion is termed the nibbāna component with fuel remaining.
Nothing whatsoever to do with a "state" or "pitch-black emptiness."

All the best,

Geoff
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Kori
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Kori »

I think that what parth meant is that Nibbana is simply indescribable even when one has attained it. You can describe in words how to get there, but describing in words the actual phenomena is futile. Therefore, "The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion" are words describing how one attains it, but not actual Nibbana itself.
"All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him."

Dhammapada, Ch. 1, Verse 2.
Nyana
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Nyana »

Kori wrote:I think that what parth meant is that Nibbana is simply indescribable even when one has attained it. You can describe in words how to get there, but describing in words the actual phenomena is futile. Therefore, "The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion" are words describing how one attains it, but not actual Nibbana itself.
The way to get there is the noble eightfold path, which is to be developed. The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion is the fruition of the path, which is to be realized. "Nibbāna" is a figurative term relating to this elimination using the metaphor of fire and fuel. Both the path and the fruition are sufficiently defined and explained in the canonical teachings. Thus, in the context of the realization of nibbāna there's really no need for appeals to ineffability.

All the best,

Geoff
Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Parth »

Kori said :
I think that what parth meant is that Nibbana is simply indescribable even when one has attained it. You can describe in words how to get there, but describing in words the actual phenomena is futile. Therefore, "The elimination of passion, the elimination of aggression, the elimination of delusion" are words describing how one attains it, but not actual Nibbana itself.
Exactly, something which is beyond the six senses cannot be defined by anything within the realm of six senses, it is a futile exercise. The description will always be incomplete / disputed etc. etc. It is simply useless. It is something like what ancient teachers in India used to say "neti- neti" not this, not this or like the "gunge keri sarkara" ie.a dumb person trying to define taste of sweet he just tasted- cant be done.

Now for nana as above "nibbana" is a figurative term - is it so ? The point is not who is right who is wrong but, the exercise itself is futile - cant be done. Lets not waste time on that.

:anjali:

Metta

Parth
Last edited by Parth on Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rowyourboat
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by rowyourboat »

C'mon Geoff, do you really think that I thought nibbana was a state? If so your assessment of my understanding is mistaken. We both know the unconditioned can't be defined, except by perhaps (and quite usefully so) by what conditioned states are absent - namely suffering! - and that is why I am a Buddhist.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

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Kenshou
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Kenshou »

parth wrote:neti neti etc.
You know, that is not a Buddhist doctrine. I think it would be a confusing mistake to let other tradition's concepts muddle up the dhamma.
the exercise itself is futile - cant be done
Maybe if you're a follower of Advaita Vedanta, but in Buddhism we have ways of talking about this, as Geoff has pointed out.
Parth
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Re: Pitch-black emptiness and Mahasi Sayadaw technique

Post by Parth »

Dear Kenshou,

Actually Buddhism was propogated by everybody other than Buddha himself. He just taught Dhamma which is universal, a universal remidy for a universal suffering. Please give me just one quote from entire Tipitika where where Buddhism / 'bauddha' as a word is mentioned. You will not find even one mention. And as per Buddha's own words from aeons perhaps India has been a country of Buddha's / Pacceka buddha's and those words keep filtering down. You practise Vipassana and suddenly find that words of various mystics have a very differnt meaning.

I for one am just a follower of Vipassana , along with Buddha's / other wise people's words; wherever that takes me. Rest does not matter.

Your / others futile effort in trying to define Nibbana will and cannot take you even an inch closer to defining it literally / figuratively / any other 'ly'. The point I make is "the unconditioned can't be defined". Better to invest time in the practise and work on.

Metta

Parth
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