Vipassana taught by the Buddha

Discussion of Satipatthana bhavanā and Vipassana bhavana.

Vipassana taught by the Buddha

Postby starter » Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:30 pm

Hello Teachers/Friends,

I'd like to share with you my understanding of Vipassana taught by the Buddha in the Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118) and AN 9.36.

1. Contemplation of the body [breathing]: it is about experiencing bodily fabrications and experiencing the calming/stilling of bodily fabrications.

2. Contemplation of the feelings [piti and sukha]: it is about experiencing mental fabrications and experiencing the calming/stilling of mental fabrications (mainly feeling, perception and conception, and probably also intention and attention?).

3. Contemplation of the mind:
1) Experiencing the presence and absence [stilling] of greed/aversion/delusion
2) Gladdening the mind by the absence of greed/aversion/delusion and other hindrances [?]
3) Concentrate/steady the mind
4) Enter jhana

4. Contemplation of the Dhamma:
1) Contemplate anicca/dukkha/anatta of the five aggregates involved in the jhana [disenchantment towards the five aggregates].
2) Contemplate dispassion and ending of craving [towards the five aggregates].
3) Contemplate cessation [of attachment to the five aggregates].
4) Contemplate relinquishing [of greed/aversion/delusion].

I base the contemplation of the Dhamma on the following teaching of the Buddha in AN 9.36 (& MN 64):

'I tell you, the ending of the effluents depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said?..., there is the case where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there [in the jhana?] that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & (sense-)consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness:

'This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbana.'

If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints because of that chandaraga (desire and attachment) for the Dhamma [those states: jhanas] then with the destruction of the five lower fetters [self-identity views, grasping at sila & observances, doubts, sensual passion, and aversion] he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously [in the pure abodes], and there attain final Nibbana without ever returning from that world.

As underlined above, while remaining in the first jhana he “regards” the phenomena there as anicca/dukkha/anatta, and continue to contemplate dispassion/cessation/relinquishing, instead of only noting their arising and passing away with bare attention.

One could argue that the Buddha taught the contemplation of anicca as bare attention of the phenomena of arising and passing away with regard to the body, feelings, mind and the Dhamma in the Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10 and DN 22), but such anicca contemplations are not found in the early Chinese agama versions of the equivalent suttas.

Did the Buddha teach the contemplation of anicca (for insight) as only bare attention of the arising and passing away of phenomena in some other suttas?

Your input will be most appreciated. Thanks and metta,

Starter

PS: I checked the definition of "contemplation", and found the most common meaning is "thoughtful, long, calm observation / consideration / examination / reflection of an object or objects.
Last edited by starter on Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Vipassana taught by the Buddha

Postby Monkey Mind » Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:34 pm

I saw this on the other forum, and copied it to my notebook. Before the resident critics have their go, I'll just say thank you for the effort.
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710
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Re: Vipassana taught by the Buddha

Postby cooran » Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:10 pm

Hello all,

Starter said: One could argue that the Buddha taught the contemplation of anicca as bare attention of the phenomena of arising and passing away with regard to the body, feelings, mind and the Dhamma in the Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10 and DN 22), but such anicca contemplations are not found in the early Chinese agama versions of the equivalent suttas.


The Chinese Canon
[……………………….]
‘’From the above it can be seen that the Chinese Tripitaka is composed mainly of Mahayana scriptures of the second 500 years, yet translations were not restricted to scriptures of this middle period. The Chinese Tripitaka also possesses a wealth of works of early Buddhism as a good portion of the later productions.

Thus, if one could have a sufficient knowledge of the Chinese Tripitaka, and could extend his knowledge from there to include the Pali Tripitaka of the Sravakayana, and the Madhyamika and Supreme Yoga of the Tibetan system, then he would have little difficulty in gaining an accurate, complete and comprehensive panorama of the 1,700 years of development of Indian Buddhism, the record of which has been preserved in the three great extant schools of Buddhist thought.

The late Venerable Tai Hsu once said, "To mold a new, critical and comprehensive system, based on the Chinese Tripitaka, the Theravada teaching of Ceylon, and selected components of the Tibetan canon, should be the objective of the writing of a history of Indian Buddhism."
Even more so, it should be the objective of coordinating and connecting the many tributaries of world Buddhism. It is our responsibility to discard the trimmings and to retain the very essence of the great Tripitakas, adapting Buddhism to the modern world so that it may fulfil its mission of leading the way, taking under its wings the miserable beings of the present era. ‘’

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/his ... tripit.htm

with metta
Chris
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---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Vipassana taught by the Buddha

Postby Kenshou » Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:24 pm

This Chinese Tipitaka may contain Mahayana material, but the Agamas do not, as far as I've ever heard, being that they're more or less same body of texts as the Nikayas. Anyhow, I believe that the Satipatthana suttas of the Pali Canon are thought to likely be something of an amalgam. Which doesn't necessarily nullify the information in those texts, but it would explain why the particulars of the content vary. Not a big deal.

But I realize I haven't provided a source (damned if I can remember where I read everything I do), so feel free to tell me I'm wrong.
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Re: Vipassana taught by the Buddha

Postby starter » Sat Apr 23, 2011 11:36 pm

"This Chinese Tipitaka may contain Mahayana material, but the Agamas do not, as far as I've ever heard, being that they're more or less same body of texts as the Nikayas."

-- Indeed, the Agamas were introduced to and translated (around end 300 A.C.) in China well before Mahayana.
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Re: Vipassana taught by the Buddha

Postby Dmytro » Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:44 am

Hi Starter,

starter wrote:Did the Buddha teach the contemplation of anicca (for insight) as only bare attention of the arising and passing away of phenomena in some other suttas?


He emphasized it very much. "Bare attention" is a modern invention, for the the Buddha's description of recognition of impermanence see:

See: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2834#p40805
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta, Dmytro
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Re: Vipassana taught by the Buddha

Postby Nyana » Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:26 pm

Dmytro wrote:"Bare attention" is a modern invention

:!:

All the best,

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Re: Vipassana taught by the Buddha

Postby IanAnd » Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:03 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
Dmytro wrote:"Bare attention" is a modern invention, [for the the Buddha's description of recognition of impermanence...]

:!:

Give Dmytro a break. He's Ukrainian and not a native speaker of English (even though he has a very good command of the language, much better than I have of Russian (or Ukrainian, whichever is the case), which is zilch!).

I think he meant to say a "modern idiom" or "way of expression" rather than "invention." Eliminating or not including the context (in brackets above) makes it sound or appear more extreme than was intended. :)
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
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Re: Vipassana taught by the Buddha

Postby Nyana » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:11 pm

IanAnd wrote:Give Dmytro a break. He's Ukrainian and not a native speaker of English (even though he has a very good command of the language, much better than I have of Russian (or Ukrainian, whichever is the case), which is zilch!).

I think he meant to say a "modern idiom" or "way of expression" rather than "invention." Eliminating or not including the context (in brackets above) makes it sound or appear more extreme than was intended.

Actually, I was agreeing with him. I guess a :!: doesn't really make that clear.

All the best,

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Re: Vipassana taught by the Buddha

Postby IanAnd » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:51 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
IanAnd wrote:Give Dmytro a break. He's Ukrainian and not a native speaker of English (even though he has a very good command of the language, much better than I have of Russian (or Ukrainian, whichever is the case), which is zilch!).

I think he meant to say a "modern idiom" or "way of expression" rather than "invention." Eliminating or not including the context (in brackets above) makes it sound or appear more extreme than was intended.

Actually, I was agreeing with him. I guess a :!: doesn't really make that clear.

All the best,

Geoff

Then, as Rosann Rosanna Dana would say: "Nevermind."
"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV
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Re: Vipassana taught by the Buddha

Postby Nyana » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:06 pm

IanAnd wrote:Then, as Rosann Rosanna Dana would say: "Nevermind."

:smile:
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Re: Vipassana taught by the Buddha

Postby Dmytro » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:49 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
Dmytro wrote:"Bare attention" is a modern invention, [for the the Buddha's description of recognition of impermanence...]

:!:


The Concept of "Choiceless Awareness" was introduced by Jiddu Krishnamurti:

"(Choiceless) Awareness is a state in which there is no condemnation, no justification or identification, and therefore there is understanding: in that state of passive, alert awareness there is neither the experiencer nor the experienced."

http://books.google.com/books?id=_5ho4x ... frontcover

Krishnamurti's books were popular in Srli Lanka:

"Godwin once said to me: 'I learned to think from K.N (Jayatillake), Ven. Nyanaponika encouraged me to read the suttas, and Krishnamurti's writings made sense of it all.'"

http://www.godwin-home-page.net/Tributes/Dhammika.htm

Ven. Nyanaponika mentions the Krishnamurti's "Choiceless Awareness" in his book on "Achtsamkeit" (Mindfulness), and describes the difference between his approach and Krishnamurti's. However the name "Choiceless Awareness" and the key features remain the same in both approaches - it's passive observation of what happens.

Ven.Nyanaponika writes:

"By bare attention we understand the clear and single-minded awareness of what actually happens to us and in us, at the successive moments of perception. It is called “bare” because it attends to the bare facts of a perception without reacting to them by deed, speech or mental comment."

http://www.midamericadharma.org/gangess ... lness.html

Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu says:

"The Myth of Bare Attention
The Buddha never used the word for “bare attention” in his meditation instructions. That’s because he realized that attention never occurs in a bare, pure, or unconditioned form. It’s always colored by views and perceptions—the labels you tend to give to events—and by intentions: your choice of what to attend to and your purpose in being attentive.
If you don’t understand the conditioned nature of even simple acts of attention, you might assume that a moment of nonreactive attention is a moment of Awakening. And in that way you miss one of the most crucial insights in Buddhist meditation, into how even the simplest events in the mind can form a condition for clinging and suffering. If you assume a conditioned event to be unconditioned, you close the door to the unconditioned. So it’s important to understand the conditioned nature of attention and how the Buddha recommended that it be trained—as appropriate attention—to be a factor in the path leading beyond attention to total Awakening."

http://dharma.org/ij/documents/FoodforAwakening_000.pdf

"In the Satipatthana Sutta, they’re combined with a third quality: atappa, or ardency. Ardency means being intent on what you’re doing, trying your best to do it skillfully. This doesn’t mean that you have to keep straining and sweating all the time, just that you’re continuous in developing skillful habits and abandoning unskillful ones. Remember, in the eight factors of the path to freedom, right mindfulness grows out of right effort. Right effort is the effort to be skillful. Mindfulness helps that effort along by reminding you to stick with it, so that you don’t let it drop.
All three of these qualities get their focus from what the Buddha called yoniso manisikara, appropriate attention. Notice: That’s appropriate attention, not bare attention. The Buddha discovered that the way you attend to things is determined by what you see as important—the questions you bring to the practice, the problems you want the practice to solve. No act of attention is ever bare. If there were no problems in life you could open yourself up choicelessly to whatever came along. But the fact is there is a big problem smack dab in the middle of everything you do: the suffering that comes from acting in ignorance. This is why the Buddha doesn’t tell you to view each moment with a beginner’s eyes. You’ve got to keep the issue of suffering and its end always in mind."

http://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writ ... efined.pdf

Santikaro wtites:

"Sometimes people use the term “choiceless awareness,” and over the years I’ve heard it used in various ways—some of them quite fuzzy. If awareness is really choiceless, there’s no reaction. And actually very few people can practice real choiceless awareness: when all seven factors are pretty well developed. If the wholesome and the unwholesome stuff keeps coming up, we might not quite be able to be choiceless. It’s easy to take things for granted; stuff that we’re comfortable with, stuff we like and don’t like to look at. We all tend to build up lot of habits, and then we don’t want to look at those. But often when there’s a habit pattern there’s a lot of working of the self, and that’s exactly where we need to look."

http://dharma.org/ij/archives/2000b/santikaro.htm

Ven.Bhikkhu Bodhi writes:

"To practice heedfulness is to take full account of these dualities with their profound implications. The heedful person does not aim at a choiceless awareness open to existence in its totality, for to open oneself thus is to risk making oneself vulnerable to just those elements in oneself that keep one bound to the realm of Mara. The awareness developed through heedfulness is built upon a choice — a well-considered choice to abandon those qualities one understands to be detrimental and to develop in their place those qualities one understands to be beneficial, the states that lead to purity and peace."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_17.html

Brahmavamso writes:

"Would you be happy with such a gatekeeper's explanation of mindfulness? A wise gatekeeper knows that mindfulness is more than bare attention. A wise gatekeeper has to remember the instructions and perform them with diligence. If he sees a thief trying to break in then he must stop the burglar, or else call in the police.

In the same way, a wise meditator must do more than just give bare attention to whatever comes in and goes out of the mind. The wise meditator must remember the instructions and act on them with diligence. For instance, the Buddha gave the instruction of the 6th Factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, "Right Effort." When wise meditators practising mindfulness observe an unwholesome state trying to "break in", they try to stop the defilement, and if the unwholesome state does slip in, they try to evict it. Unwholesome states such as sexual desire or anger are like burglars, sweet-talking con artists, who will rob you of your peace, wisdom and happiness. There are, then, these two aspects of mindfulness: the aspect of mindfulness of awareness and the aspect of mindfulness of remembering the instructions."

http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebmed070.htm

Best wishes, Dmytro
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Re: Vipassana taught by the Buddha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:31 am

Dmytro wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:
Dmytro wrote:"Bare attention" is a modern invention, [for the the Buddha's description of recognition of impermanence...]

:!:


The Concept of "Choiceless Awareness" was introduced by Jiddu Krishnamurti:
The terminology of "choiceless awareness" was taken over by vipassana teachers from Krishnamurti and put into a Buddhist context.

Ven.Bhikkhu Bodhi writes:

"To practice heedfulness is to take full account of these dualities with their profound implications. The heedful person does not aim at a choiceless awareness open to existence in its totality, for to open oneself thus is to risk making oneself vulnerable to just those elements in oneself that keep one bound to the realm of Mara. The awareness developed through heedfulness is built upon a choice — a well-considered choice to abandon those qualities one understands to be detrimental and to develop in their place those qualities one understands to be beneficial, the states that lead to purity and peace."
Bare attention is a phrase coined by Ven Nyanaponika, and is clearly explained by him in his book HEART OF BUDDHIST MEDITATION, and Ven Bodhi defends it and puts into the Buddhist context in his exchange with Wallace:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 140#p74190

http://shamatha.org/sites/default/files ... ndence.pdf See page 15.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Vipassana taught by the Buddha

Postby Dmytro » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:07 am

tiltbillings wrote:Bare attention is a phrase coined by Ven Nyanaponika, and is clearly explained by him in his book HEART OF BUDDHIST MEDITATION, and Ven Bodhi defends it and puts into the Buddhist context in his exchange with Wallace:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 140#p74190

http://shamatha.org/sites/default/files ... ndence.pdf See page 15.


Thank you, that's interesting. The "bare attention" concept has its merits, but the Buddha's terms are more exact and immediately applicable.

In the Sutta, "sati" is explained as "recollection, remembrance":
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4299

The practice of Satipatthana, as explained in Bihikkunupassaya sutta, is not passive, and involves an active redirection of attention to change what's going on:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5656#p88181

Best wishes, Dmytro
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Re: Vipassana taught by the Buddha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:14 am

Dmytro wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Bare attention is a phrase coined by Ven Nyanaponika, and is clearly explained by him in his book HEART OF BUDDHIST MEDITATION, and Ven Bodhi defends it and puts into the Buddhist context in his exchange with Wallace:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4623&start=140#p74190

http://shamatha.org/sites/default/files ... ndence.pdf See page 15.


Thank you, that's interesting. The "bare attention" concept has its merits, but the Buddha's terms are more exact and immediately applicable.

In the Sutta, "sati" is explained as "recollection, remembrance":
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4299
Like a lot of words in Pali and in any other language, the strict dictionary meaning is not always carried by the word.

The practice of Satipatthana, as explained in Bihikkunupassaya sutta, is not passive, and involves an active redirection of attention to change what's going on:

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 656#p88181
And so it is with "bare attention."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Vipassana taught by the Buddha

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:57 am

Starter,

The steps to stream entry:

1) association with kalyanamittas/spiritual friends
2) listening to the true dhamma (..said by 1) above)
3) appropriate contemplation (yonisomanasikara)- what you considered 'contemplation', if I am not mistaken
4) practice according to the dhamma. (dhammanudhamma patipada)

In my practice of teaching, I find that yonisomanasikara serves as a good foundation for contemplating anicca etc BEFORE starting bare awareness/choiceless awareness, because otherwise many practitioners will simply go down the 'make samsara comfortable route, by being mindful'. I used to start with mindfulness, but now I make sure that right view is in place, before starting pure satipatthana. This is time well spent, otherwise people could go completely off track.. as seems to have happened sometimes.

I feel the dhammanudhamma patipada refers to the satipatthana- note that silavantan sutta say a practitioner MAY get into stream entry by appropriate contemplation alone, but in the satipatthana sutta this is guaranteed - it is the 'ekayana' path- the one sure path. You ask for other suttas - well Anapanasati sutta, Kayagatasati sutta and the satipatthana samyutta all come to mind. Remember there are 8 other factors to practice as well- so there are lost more suttas on those elements of the path as well- and it is not all about mindfulness (the one-fold path :) ).

Also look at this:

"In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent on heightened mind: misconduct in body, speech, & mind. These the monk — aware & able by nature — abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them, there remain in him the moderate impurities: thoughts of sensuality, ill will, & harmfulness. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them there remain in him the fine impurities: thoughts of his caste, thoughts of his home district, thoughts related to not wanting to be despised. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

We should not let ourselves be biased based on the locality from where our teachings originate from. :smile:

with metta

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Re: Vipassana taught by the Buddha

Postby starter » Fri May 06, 2011 8:18 pm

Hm ... I've just learned something new about anapanasati. As I understand now, the second tetrad appears to mean the calming of the piti and the coarse pleasure associated with piti, in order to calm down the agitation associated with such feelings. Whereas the third tetrad seems to be about experiencing the refined sukha, the refined pleasure associated with tranquilized body and mind, which can lead one to profound samādhi (there are different types of sukha). So "experiencing the mind" probably doesn't mean "Experiencing the presence and absence [stilling] of greed/aversion/delusion", and "Gladdening the mind" also doesn't mean cheering up the mind "by the absence of greed/aversion/delusion and other hindrances", but deepening the refined sukha. The third tetrad finally achieves "stilling of the mind".

Thanks and metta to all,

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Re: Vipassana taught by the Buddha

Postby starter » Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:33 pm

Hi I listened to the 16 steps several times today and realized that the second tetrad appears to mean experiencing mental fabrications and experiencing the calming/stilling of mental fabrications (perceptions of feelings and all mental formations) instead of the calming of actual sukha. The 4th tetrad (contemplation of the Dhamma) seems to mean experiencing/contemplating anicca/fading away/cessation/relinquishment of every in-breath and out-breath, instead of things other than breath.

The contemplation of the five aggregates as anicca/dukkha/anatta and the contemplation of nibbana don't seem to be done during the 16 steps, but probably another way of meditation after entering jhana.

Welcome your comments. Thanks and metta,

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Re: Vipassana taught by the Buddha

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:43 pm

starter wrote:"This Chinese Tipitaka may contain Mahayana material, but the Agamas do not, as far as I've ever heard, being that they're more or less same body of texts as the Nikayas."

-- Indeed, the Agamas were introduced to and translated (around end 300 A.C.) in China well before Mahayana.

This is from the great buddhologist Msgr. Etienne Lamotte, SJ in his
exhaustive HISTORY OF INDIAN BUDDHISM (Peeters Press, 1988,
page 156):

    However, with the exception of the Mahayanist interpolations in
    the _Ekottara_ [the Chinese equivalent to the Pali Canon's
    _Anguttara_], which are easily discernable, the variations in
    question affect hardly anything save the method of expression or
    arrangement of the subjects. The doctrinal basis common to the
    agamas [preserved in Chinese and partially Sanskrit and Tibetan]
    is remarkably uniform. Preserved and transmitted by the schools,
    the sutras [discourses] do not however constitute scholastic
    documents, but are the common heritage of all the sects.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Vipassana taught by the Buddha

Postby Dmytro » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:49 am

Hi Starter,

starter wrote:Hi I listened to the 16 steps several times today and realized that the second tetrad appears to mean experiencing mental fabrications and experiencing the calming/stilling of mental fabrications (perceptions of feelings and all mental formations) instead of the calming of actual sukha. The 4th tetrad (contemplation of the Dhamma) seems to mean experiencing/contemplating anicca/fading away/cessation/relinquishment of every in-breath and out-breath, instead of things other than breath.


If you are interested in the details, I would recommend:

- Anapanasati chapter in Patisambhidamagga http://bps.lk/olib/bp/bp502s.pdf
http://dhamma.ru/forum/index.php?topic= ... 93#msg9193 ;
- Anapanasati chapter in Vimuttimagga
http://www.archive.org/details/ArahantU ... reedom.pdf ;
- Commentary on Satipatthana sutta (including Anapanasati)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html

The contemplation of the five aggregates as anicca/dukkha/anatta and the contemplation of nibbana don't seem to be done during the 16 steps, but probably another way of meditation after entering jhana.


The fourth section of Satipatthana (and Anapanasati) is indeed devoted to the development of Vipassana. Buddha describes it in more detail as the development of seven selective recognitions (sanna) mentioned above:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2834#p40805
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta, Dmytro
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