Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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Mr Man
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Mr Man »

David2 wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
vidar wrote: If somebody feel aversion towards Chanting the best thing to do is maintain equanimity
Do you mean just observe the aversion and work with that (focusing on the mind space and thought proliferation)? Or should one return to the object of meditation, be that anapana sati or focusing on physical sensations in the body?
You should continue your meditation if aversion arises.

You are observing the aversion when you are observing the sensations in the body.
Do you mean the thoughts of aversion? Creating a large field of mindfullness which encompses mind and body? How about focusing directly on the sound of the chanting as it resonates?
David2
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by David2 »

Mr Man wrote: How about focusing directly on the sound of the chanting as it resonates?
Focusing on the chanting is certainly not wrong either..
I would say try out what works best for you.
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Goofaholix
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

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Mr Man wrote:Do you mean the thoughts of aversion? Creating a large field of mindfullness which encompses mind and body? How about focusing directly on the sound of the chanting as it resonates?
That wouldn't be vipassana, vipassana techniques ask you to observe sense contact through the 6 sense doors, so instead of focusing on sound you observe the process of hearing, you observe what's happening within your own mind body process.

This is an important distinction.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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kirk5a
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

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Goofaholix wrote:vipassana techniques ask you to observe sense contact through the 6 sense doors, so instead of focusing on sound you observe the process of hearing, you observe what's happening within your own mind body process.

This is an important distinction.
Is that different than "just the heard in the heard" ?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

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kirk5a wrote: Is that different than "just the heard in the heard" ?
No, that's what I'm talking about, otherwise it would be "just the sound in the sound".
Last edited by Goofaholix on Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by kirk5a »

Goofaholix wrote: No, that's what I'm talking about, otherwise it would be "just the sound in the sound".
So you see a difference in practice between "just the heard in the heard" and "just the sound in the sound" ? What is that difference?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

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kirk5a wrote:
Goofaholix wrote: No, that's what I'm talking about, otherwise it would be "just the sound in the sound".
So you see a difference in practice between "just the heard in the heard" and "just the sound in the sound" ? What is that difference?
It seems to me that "heard" involves the coming together of sound, ear, and vinnana. Strictly speaking, "just the sound in the sound" isn't a possible percept.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Goofaholix
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Goofaholix »

kirk5a wrote:
Goofaholix wrote: No, that's what I'm talking about, otherwise it would be "just the sound in the sound".
So you see a difference in practice between "just the heard in the heard" and "just the sound in the sound" ? What is that difference?
Sound happens out there, hearing happens within ones mind and body.

If you focus on sound you'll get caught up in imagining where it is happening, what kind of bird is making it etc.

If you observe hearing you'll observe the process of contact, perception, feeling, and fabrication etc all happening within the mind body process.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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kirk5a
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by kirk5a »

Goofaholix wrote: If you observe hearing you'll observe the process of contact, perception, feeling, and fabrication etc all happening within the mind body process.
So what?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Goofaholix
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Goofaholix »

kirk5a wrote:
Goofaholix wrote: If you observe hearing you'll observe the process of contact, perception, feeling, and fabrication etc all happening within the mind body process.
So what?
That's the practise.

Suffering arises within the mind body process not within sound, you can observe the beauty of the melody of birdsong and imagine how lovely that bird is but unless you notice the process that is going on in the mind and body as a result of that you won't have learned anything about the mind.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Mr Man
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Mr Man »

Goofaholix what do you focus on to "observe hearing"?
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vidar
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by vidar »

Mr Man wrote:
vidar wrote: If somebody feel aversion towards Chanting the best thing to do is maintain equanimity
Do you mean just observe the aversion and work with that (focusing on the mind space and thought proliferation)? Or should one return to the object of meditation, be that anapana sati or focusing on physical sensations in the body?
I mean just observe the sensations in the body and maintain the equanimity if aversion arises, and if you are incapable to do that then you go back to anapana-sati and just observe the breath, or at least that's how I have understood.

:anjali:
All the world is on fire, All the world is burning, All the world is ablaze, All the world is quaking. That which does not quake or blaze, That to which worldlings do not resort, Where there is no place for Mara:That is where my mind delights. (SN 5.7)

By degrees, little by little,
from moment to moment,
the wise purify themselves,
as a smith purifies silver.
—Dhammapada 239
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Mr Man
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Mr Man »

vidar wrote: I mean just observe the sensations in the body and maintain the equanimity if aversion arises, and if you are incapable to do that then you go back to anapana-sati and just observe the breath, or at least that's how I have understood.
Thanks for the reply, that's how I would imagine one would implement the U Ba Khin method as well. :anjali:
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Goofaholix
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Goofaholix »

Mr Man wrote:Goofaholix what do you focus on to "observe hearing"?
Focus and observe are two different things, focus is attempting to hone in on something to the exclusion of everything else whereas observe is more inclusive and more open to whatever arises.

We don't focus in insight meditation, we observe. So we observe hearing the same as we observe sensations in the body, and the feeling tone, and the arising and passing away.

So when sound is noticed you observe what happens in the body and mind, notice hearing has happened, notice the feelings that arise pleasant unpleasant or neutral, the sensations in the body that may arise as a result, the thinking that may arise as a result.

It makes not difference what the sound is, it's what happens within the mind and body as a result of the sound that is of interest.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Mr Man
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Re: Goenka retreat- aversion towards Chanting

Post by Mr Man »

Goofaholix, When we practice the U Ba Khin method, the same mental faculty that is developed in Anapana Sati is brought to "Vipasana". The focus is sometimes narrow (like focusing on the soles of the feet) and sometimes it is widened to take in the whole body etc.. Sometimes it is fairly active and sometimes more passive but it is still the same mental faculty.

When I said "How about focusing directly on the sound of the chanting as it resonates?" what do you think I meant?

:anjali:
Last edited by Mr Man on Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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