There is one part in this particular sutta that says:
"In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself." (Quoted from Ajahn Thanissaro's translation: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html)
I notice that this is repeated throughout the entire sutta. What strikes my mind is the part on "internal or external or both internal and external." From what I have understood through listening teachings from many teachers, they tend to emphasize that the practice of meditation is an internal one, while some openly reject the notion of external things. But here in this sutta, it says one should focus internally, externally or both internal and external. Do you know or how would you understand this phrase?
I try to reconcile this seeming conflict in the following way: the internal part refers to one's own mind - watching how one mind easily gets distracted or jumps from one thought to another - and why it is so restless and agitated - because of one's defilements such as greed, hatred, envy, selfishness, ignorance, etc. Hence, it is important to look internally to identify these roots of suffering and guard the mind from the attack of these defilement to prevent or overcome suffering.
However, one needs to also pay attention to the external part as well, because by just merely focusing on the internal part, one could easily get so absorbed in the internal processes that he loses awareness of his body movement/posture or even his external surrounding which may pose a danger to himself. To account for this, I take as example public speaking or communication. When speaking, the speaker first needs to look internally into himself: he needs to make sure he focuses on what he wishes to address or speak and not get off-track, he needs to make sure he is reasonably calm or otherwise he would stutter or stammer throughout the communication process. However, he needs to look at his audience and environment for non-verbal feedback or cues and cater his speech accordingly to those feedback so that he could successfully convey what he wishes his audience to receive. In this manner, by accounting or being mindful of both internal and external things, it also seems to prove the practicality of mindfulness, or how mindfulness yields not only insight but also wisdom in dealing with everyday issues. That's why, in my opinion, the practice of mindfulness meditation includes kayanupassana: contemplating on bodily activities such as seeing, listening, walking, etc, as these are the channels of activities that could connect both the internal and external world through mindfulness.
This phrase from the sutta became a point for contemplation to me after I heard some of my friends who have been regular meditators and have been attending talks on meditation keep on emphasizing that one should always focus internally and disregard the external aspects. For me, I thought the external aspects could serve to facilitate meditation practice and should not be denied altogether, although they could be dangerous if one is not mindful about them.
This is just my own point of view and I'm very happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. What do you think about that phrase from the sutta?
With metta,
Dhammanucara
Satipatthana Sutta clarification
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Re: Satipatthana Sutta clarification
There is a sutta somewhere (I'm sorry for not knowing where can you find it) that clarifies this saying that externaly means focusing on others' bodies, feelings, etc. This contemplation can only be done through psychic powers (except maybe the body part).
EDIT: Do a search on satipatthana and externaly and you'll probably find that sutta mentioned.
EDIT: Do a search on satipatthana and externaly and you'll probably find that sutta mentioned.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
Re: Satipatthana Sutta clarification
I highly recommend checking out Analayos' Satipatthana commentary where he presents a number of different interpretations on this matter from the suttas, commentaries and modern day meditation masters:
Satipatthana: The Direct Path to Realization
http://www.amazon.com/Satipatthana-Dire ... 1899579540" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Satipatthana: The Direct Path to Realization
http://www.amazon.com/Satipatthana-Dire ... 1899579540" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.
- BB
- BB
Re: Satipatthana Sutta clarification
Hello Dhammanucara, all,
Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation reads: ‘’In this way he abides contemplating thebody as a body internally, oor he abides contemplating the body as a body externally, or he abides contemplating the body as a body both internally and externally.’’
Note: MA: ‘’Internally’’: contemplating the breathing in his own body. ‘’externally’’: contemplating the breathing occurring in the body of another. ‘’Internally and externally’’: contemplating the breathing in his own body and in the body of another alternately, with uninterrupted attention. A similar explanation applies to the refrain that follows each of the other sections, except that under the contemplation of feeling, mind, and mind-objects, the contemplation externally, apart from those possessing telepathic powers, must be inferential.’’
with metta
Chris
Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation reads: ‘’In this way he abides contemplating thebody as a body internally, oor he abides contemplating the body as a body externally, or he abides contemplating the body as a body both internally and externally.’’
Note: MA: ‘’Internally’’: contemplating the breathing in his own body. ‘’externally’’: contemplating the breathing occurring in the body of another. ‘’Internally and externally’’: contemplating the breathing in his own body and in the body of another alternately, with uninterrupted attention. A similar explanation applies to the refrain that follows each of the other sections, except that under the contemplation of feeling, mind, and mind-objects, the contemplation externally, apart from those possessing telepathic powers, must be inferential.’’
with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
Re: Satipatthana Sutta clarification
I've heard it before, but that interpretation makes no sense to me. Many examples of what to focus on are given throughout the sutta but focusing on other people's breathing, feelings, etc. or telepathically observing someone else's mind objects (!?) ... none of these are given as examples.
Re: Satipatthana Sutta clarification
Please see Analayo's Satipatthana commentary. I implore anyone who has any questions regarding any aspect of the Satipatthana Sutta to see this book.octathlon wrote:I've heard it before, but that interpretation makes no sense to me. Many examples of what to focus on are given throughout the sutta but focusing on other people's breathing, feelings, etc. or telepathically observing someone else's mind objects (!?) ... none of these are given as examples.
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.
- BB
- BB
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Re: Satipatthana Sutta clarification
I take my interanl/external definition from this:
with metta
Matheesha
..it seems to be a process of inference to me. Otherwise it wouldnt make sense (the noble eightfold path and the four foundations being accessible to anyone).§ 32. Internal & External. There is the case where a monk remains
focused internally on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, &
mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
As he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, he
becomes rightly concentrated there, and rightly clear. Rightly
concentrated there and rightly clear, he gives rise to knowledge &
vision externally of the bodies of others.
He remains focused internally on feelings in & of themselves —
ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with
reference to the world. As he remains focused internally on feelings
in & of themselves, he becomes rightly concentrated there, and
rightly clear. Rightly concentrated there and rightly clear, he gives
rise to knowledge & vision externally of the feelings of others.
He remains focused internally on the mind in & of itself — ardent,
alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to
the world. As he remains focused internally on the mind in & of
itself, he becomes rightly concentrated there, and rightly clear.
Rightly concentrated there and rightly clear, he gives rise to
knowledge & vision externally of the minds of others.
He remains focused internally on mental qualities in & of themselves —
ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with
reference to the world. As he remains focused internally on mental
qualities in & of themselves, he becomes rightly concentrated there,
and rightly clear. Rightly concentrated there and rightly clear, he
gives rise to knowledge & vision externally of the mental qualities
of others.
— DN 18
with metta
Matheesha
With Metta
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Re: Satipatthana Sutta clarification
Bodom you took the words out my mouth!bodom wrote:Please see Analayo's Satipatthana commentary. I implore anyone who has any questions regarding any aspect of the Satipatthana Sutta to see this book.octathlon wrote:I've heard it before, but that interpretation makes no sense to me. Many examples of what to focus on are given throughout the sutta but focusing on other people's breathing, feelings, etc. or telepathically observing someone else's mind objects (!?) ... none of these are given as examples.
Ven Analayo's work is a modern masterpiece. And according to Christopher Titmus, the most important commentary on the Satipatthana written in the last 2,000 years. Titmus may be gilding the lilly a little. However, it remains an extremely important and relevant work. I cannot recommend it highly enough.
kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Satipatthana Sutta clarification
I will take your advice.bodom wrote:Please see Analayo's Satipatthana commentary. I implore anyone who has any questions regarding any aspect of the Satipatthana Sutta to see this book.octathlon wrote:I've heard it before, but that interpretation makes no sense to me. Many examples of what to focus on are given throughout the sutta but focusing on other people's breathing, feelings, etc. or telepathically observing someone else's mind objects (!?) ... none of these are given as examples.
Re: Satipatthana Sutta clarification
Ben wrote:Bodom you took the words out my mouth!bodom wrote:Please see Analayo's Satipatthana commentary. I implore anyone who has any questions regarding any aspect of the Satipatthana Sutta to see this book.octathlon wrote:I've heard it before, but that interpretation makes no sense to me. Many examples of what to focus on are given throughout the sutta but focusing on other people's breathing, feelings, etc. or telepathically observing someone else's mind objects (!?) ... none of these are given as examples.
Ven Analayo's work is a modern masterpiece.
Ben
Hello Bodom and Ben,
Could those of you who have Analayo's commentary please quote what he says about that particular line?
with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
Re: Satipatthana Sutta clarification
Greetings Chris,
I could, but you might have to wait until Monday night for it as it is 100km away.
kind regards
Ben
I could, but you might have to wait until Monday night for it as it is 100km away.
kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Satipatthana Sutta clarification
I agree. The way I read the Satipatthana Sutta is that mindfulness needs to be directed externally as well as internally. So we need to be aware of other people, not just ourselves.Dhammanucara wrote: That's why, in my opinion, the practice of mindfulness meditation includes kayanupassana: contemplating on bodily activities such as seeing, listening, walking, etc, as these are the channels of activities that could connect both the internal and external world through mindfulness.
Spiny
Re: Satipatthana Sutta clarification
I discovered that it can indeed be done. Sometimes, if my mind is in a good enough state, I am able to observe, in a basic kind of way, the mind-state of my child(ren). I remember seeing how my eldest was constantly peering into the mirror, recently obsessed with 'the face as self' it would seem...and some compassion arose in my heart for her predicament, and this led me to observe how I, too, am still subject to self-view, for even though I don't sit in front of a mirror preening myself, that 'sense of self' is still there, I can feel it... Maybe I was perceiving (a mind-object...? clinging...?) 'externally and internally' that day...(?)Spiny O'Norman wrote:I agree. The way I read the Satipatthana Sutta is that mindfulness needs to be directed externally as well as internally. So we need to be aware of other people, not just ourselves.Dhammanucara wrote: That's why, in my opinion, the practice of mindfulness meditation includes kayanupassana: contemplating on bodily activities such as seeing, listening, walking, etc, as these are the channels of activities that could connect both the internal and external world through mindfulness.
Spiny
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Re: Satipatthana Sutta clarification
Yes, and this is very practical stuff not requiring supernormal powers, just some clear observation.manasikara wrote:I discovered that it can indeed be done. Sometimes, if my mind is in a good enough state, I am able to observe, in a basic kind of way, the mind-state of my child(ren).
I think this raises a more general question about how we view the Satipatthana Sutta, whether we think of it as primarily something to be applied in sitting meditation practice, or whether we view it more expansively as a framework for developing mindfulness both on and off the cushion. I tend to go with the latter approach.
Spiny
Re: Satipatthana Sutta clarification
What about the difference between meditation and contemplation?....Seems to me that the Satipatthana Sutta starts out with a monk going into seclusion (note: monk is alone....there are no other people around) and starts with breath meditation to focus the mind to get it ready for the next step which is contemplation of "body" etc.
The idea is that ()1) the meditation is a focusing of the mind brought about by concentration and elimination of mental objects which gets one ready for (2) contemplation of various mental objects (own body, other persons body, bodies in general......any of these taken to be mental objects in whatever way they arise to the mind and not specifically connected to any particular individual via any sense base etc. ) and then likewise with feelings, mind, and mental qualitites.
To repeat another way....the starting breath mediation is an objectless focusing of the mind which when focused enough is then directed to contemplate mental fabrications.
Maybe this has been posted already....not sure.
chownah
The idea is that ()1) the meditation is a focusing of the mind brought about by concentration and elimination of mental objects which gets one ready for (2) contemplation of various mental objects (own body, other persons body, bodies in general......any of these taken to be mental objects in whatever way they arise to the mind and not specifically connected to any particular individual via any sense base etc. ) and then likewise with feelings, mind, and mental qualitites.
To repeat another way....the starting breath mediation is an objectless focusing of the mind which when focused enough is then directed to contemplate mental fabrications.
Maybe this has been posted already....not sure.
chownah