Open invitation: Help us improve your DW experience!

[PeterB]

I think whether humorous or passive aggressive that is enough Tilt bashing.

[christopher:::]

~~~~((((Stop the Bashing, Give Peace a Chance))))~~~~

[Nyana]

I think whether humorous or passive aggressive that is enough Tilt bashing.

Merely a bit of jocular frivolity. But point taken.

All the best,

Geoff

[andre9999]

I think whether humorous or passive aggressive that is enough Tilt bashing.

Commence the Peter bashing!

[mikenz66]

I think whether humorous or passive aggressive that is enough Tilt bashing.

Commence the Peter bashing!

[PeterB]

Peter bashing is fine...I am used to negative transference...it comes with my territory.

[Ben]

The current system seems to work just fine.

It does indeed. However as I said, improving the DW experience isn't just something the mods and admins are responsible for - its something we are all responsible for.

I don't like peer moderation because a few people will inevitably start acting like hall monitors, finding identity and self-esteem in making sure everyone follows the rules exactly.

I don't think overzealousness of this variety would be tolerated either by my colleagues or the vast majority of our membrs. And if you see it happening and no one is intervening, all you need do is hit the report button, add your observations and it will be sent to the admin/mod team.

[Dan74]

Another thought that came to mind is about how fora tend to lose interesting members. This is something I observed at ZFI and to some extent here.

One scenario is when a new person comes, typically quite young, with an uncommon intensity and some edginess or prickliness to them. They may have a passionate interest in the Dhamma but also some doubts that they voice quite openly. They tend to get set upon by some members who I guess take them as simply being rude. Whereas it may be the way they approach new things and they mean no disrespect.

What I am saying simply is that we should be careful not to give genuine people like this a short shrift but be a little more patient (which most people already are) and encouraging. It can make a great difference both to their lives and even to this forum.

[plwk]

Since the sister site has gone through some cosmetic changes, any in the pipeline for this one?

[Ben]

Hi Dan,

Another thought that came to mind is about how fora tend to lose interesting members. This is something I observed at ZFI and to some extent here.

One scenario is when a new person comes, typically quite young, with an uncommon intensity and some edginess or prickliness to them. They may have a passionate interest in the Dhamma but also some doubts that they voice quite openly. They tend to get set upon by some members who I guess take them as simply being rude. Whereas it may be the way they approach new things and they mean no disrespect.

What I am saying simply is that we should be careful not to give genuine people like this a short shrift but be a little more patient (which most people already are) and encouraging. It can make a great difference both to their lives and even to this forum.

I understand where you are coming from. However, I believe that there is a minimum standard of online behaviour here. I think its well communicated via the TOS. I think most new people who are intense, edgy and appear rude learn pretty quickly what the culture is like here and they adjust their behaviour or they simply move on. I don't think its an unreasonable expectation that people take responsibility for their own online behaviour.
If there are any incidents which you feel a new member was given short shrift, please feel free to contact me or one of my colleagues and we will take a close look into it.
kind regards

Ben

[Ben]

Hi plwk,

Since the sister site has gone through some cosmetic changes, any in the pipeline for this one?

It hasn't even been raised within the admin forum! So, not as far as I am aware.
However, if you feel it needs a facelift, feel free to make a suggestion in our suggestion box.
kind regards

Ben

[Jechbi]

May I ask, briefly... what makes you think that these things you speak of cannot already be done freely by members via the Suggestion Box?

Because members of the mod/admin team have directly told me that members are not allowed to post any comment about specific moderator decisions or moderator-related activities, and that the only permitted method of providing that type of feedback is privately, through PMs or the report function.

In addition, members of the mod/admin team have told me that comments or criticism of moderator decisions or moderator-related activities constitutes "meta discussion" and is prohibited under TOS.

Also, members of the mod/admin team have directly told me that if a member has a complaint about mod/admin action, it may not be presented publicly. Here is how one of the moderators put it in a message to me after removing one of my posts for that reason: "If you have a complaint, as you know, the correct procedure is to go through the complaints procedure."

Here's a further quote from a moderator to me: "I ask you that you desist from targeting Tilt and do not criticise DW in-thread." I have been directly told not to criticize DW publicly on DW.

In my experience, posts that might be construed as commentary about moderating decisions or moderating conduct are taken down and made invisible, on the basis that they violate TOS by not adhering to the "meta discussion" rule and by not following the complaints procedure.

That means that in effect, the things I speak of cannot be done freely by members via the Suggestion Box, unless you suspend the rules for them that you have imposed for me. In my experience, members of the mod/admin team do not allow public criticism of their decisions on this board.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Jechbi,

May I ask, briefly... what makes you think that these things you speak of cannot already be done freely by members via the Suggestion Box?

Because members of the mod/admin team have directly told me that members are not allowed to post any comment about specific moderator decisions or moderator-related activities, and that the only permitted method of providing that type of feedback is privately, through PMs or the report function.

I'd be interested in seeing this communication, to see the context in which it was written.

In addition, members of the mod/admin team have told me that comments or criticism of moderator decisions or moderator-related activities constitutes "meta discussion" and is prohibited under TOS.

That relates to discussion in the topic itself, as per the discussion on recent pages about meta-discussion. Do you appreciate the problems that arise from meta-discussion? Have you read the article linked to from the TOS that I referred Christopher::: to earlier? What did you make of it?

Here's a further quote from a moderator to me: "I ask you that you desist from targeting Tilt and do not criticise DW in-thread." I have been directly told not to criticize DW publicly on DW.

Again, in-thread, as I was saying above... doing it in-topic is disruptive, do it via the appropriate channels.

To wit, there is nothing to stop someone going to the Suggestion Box (thereby not derailing the topic, therefore not being disruptive) and saying such-and-such and providing a link to the topic in question, if that serves as an example to contextualise their suggestion.

Also, members of the mod/admin team have directly told me that if a member has a complaint about mod/admin action, it may not be presented publicly. Here is how one of the moderators put it in a message to me after removing one of my posts for that reason: "If you have a complaint, as you know, the correct procedure is to go through the complaints procedure."

And it is... the complaints procedure adjudicates in accordance with the TOS. But if you wish to suggest amendments to the ToS, or suggestions on how they may be better interpreted or implemented by moderators, you're welcome to use the Suggestion Box to do so.

In my experience, posts that might be construed as commentary about moderating decisions or moderating conduct are taken down and made invisible, on the basis that they violate TOS by not adhering to the "meta discussion" rule and by not following the complaints procedure.

And rightly so... that is not the correct channel for such things for the reasons outlined about the disadvantages of meta-discussion.

That means that in effect, the things I speak of cannot be done freely by members via the Suggestion Box, unless you suspend the rules for them that you have imposed for me. In my experience, members of the mod/admin team do not allow criticism of their decisions on this board.

As per my previous post, I think you may have construed some false assumptions which underpin this repression and constraint you seem to believe exists. They appear to be assumptions which are not commonly shared, and thus, communications between yourself and others (be they staff or other members) on this topic seem very disconnected. In my opinion, it is a conceptual prison of your own making... one not shared by others. As I said... I'm happy to work with you to break down these misconceptions and I hope this is the first post on that journey.

Metta,
Retro.

[christopher:::]

A suggestion (to take or leave)...

Forget the past. Just put it behind us, don't look at it too closely, let it go.

What is the situation now? This discussion (sparked by an offsite protest by Jechbi) has set a new precedent here at Dhamma Wheel. The moderators and administrators have shown an unprecedented willingness to accept dissent and criticism from members. Has anyone here seen this happen on another forum? I haven't.

Retro and the other moderators are telling us that suggestions and complaints can be made publicly, in the suggestion box area, but that one should go through private channels (PM) first. If anyone has questions about this, now is the time to ask. But if we start rehashing the past, trying to pin down whether these "restrictions" where "really" part of the DW rules or just assumptions in some members' heads, i think we can argue on forever.

What are the rules, what is the situation now? That's all that matters.

Just my 2 cents.

[Jechbi]

I agree with you, Christopher. Good point.

Nevertheless, for clarity, I would like to respond to Retro.

Retro: The Suggestion Box idea is not what you told me way back at the beginning of the difficulties I began experiencing at Dhamma Wheel. At that time, you did not invite me to put my concerns into the Suggestion Box. You were very clear: I had to follow the Complaints Procedure and keep it private. Here's what you wrote to me:

Greetings Jechbi,

Thank you for the PM.

I just wanted to let you know I have been following this matter, and that what you've said has not been ignored.

If you wish, you can engage the...

Dhamma Wheel complaints procedurehttp://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1846

If you do so, be clear to differentiate between what posts, PMs or acts of moderation have been problematic. You will need to be specific.

Some time later, you again wrote to me that if I should have future concerns, I should use the Complaints Procedure. Here is your note to me (I added bold to one part for clarity):

Greetings Jechbi,

We have reviewed your complaint (in its entirety, but which you summarized thusly)....

I. Tilt has posted comments to me that directly violate the TOS, which state: "Mutual respect and friendliness should be the basis of all interactions."
II. Tilt has blurred the line between moderator and member by deleting posts from a thread in which he was engaged in debate.
III. Dhamma Wheel leadership did not respond in a meaningful way to specific concerns that I raised. Rather, Dhamma Wheel leadership answered my concerns by telling me someone would get back to me, or by criticizing me, or by offering a blanket defense of Tilt in general terms without going into specifics.
IV. Tilt initiated a PM exchange with me that was adversarial, in violation of TOS.

...and the desired outcomes that you noted in your Statement of Suitable Outcome...

a) Greater mutual respect and understanding among all of us.
b) The improvement of Dhamma Wheel so that it becomes a safer place to engage in Dhamma discussion without being subject to unfriendly, disrespectful comments posted by a moderator.
c) A respectful, friendly response of substance from Dhamma Wheel leadership to the concerns I have raised, preferably from someone besides Tilt.
d) Greater peace, harmony and happiness for every one of us.

In light of the Concerns and preferred Outcome, we have made some changes behind the scenes which we believe will prevent I, II, or IV occurring in the future. As for III, you now know the formal complaints procedure, should any grounds for future complaint arise.

We believe the internal changes that we have implemented, based on your complaint, are compatible with positive progress on each of your listed Suitable Outcomes. Let's see how it goes.

Thank you for your interest and concern regarding Dhamma Wheel.

Metta,
Retro.

If you had invited me at that time to use the Suggestion Box, I would have. But you did not, and I have tried to be very careful to follow your rules. That may be why I have not yet been banned.

After I made this complaint, things actually got worse. And in the subsequent interactions with the mod/admin team, never once did any of you suggest that I use the Suggestion Box. On the contrary, I was told on more than one occassion NOT to make public complaints.

Moreover, when I met privately with David at his invitation, I asked him about this. I do not want to misrepresent what he told me, but my question to him was whether he agrees with the rule that public criticism of moderator decisions is not allowed. I know what I asked him, and I know he did not suggest that such comments belong in the Suggestion Box.

[christopher:::]

LOL, letting go is so hard to do. Someone should write a song about it...

vs.

See: Joseph Goldstein: Achieved is the End of Craving

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Jechbi,

If you had invited me at that time to use the Suggestion Box, I would have. But you did not, and I have tried to be very careful to follow your rules. That may be why I have not yet been banned.

What I told you was correct... that is the process for complaints.

Suggestions are a different thing entirely.

It appears much of this confusion has arisen due to a conflation of the two.

After I made this complaint, things actually got worse. And in the subsequent interactions with the mod/admin team, never once did any of you suggest that I use the Suggestion Box. On the contrary, I was told on more than one occassion NOT to make public complaints.

Again, if you're going to say that you're going to provide some substantiation for your comments so we can see the context for ourselves. However, Christopher::: is right... you know now about what's allowed by recourse to the Suggestion Box - how about using it, and letting past frustrations go?

Moreover, when I met privately with David at his invitation, I asked him about this. I do not want to misrepresent what he told me, but my question to him was whether he agrees with the rule that public criticism of moderator decisions is not allowed. I know what I asked him, and I know he did not suggest that such comments belong in the Suggestion Box.

No offense intended, your track record of interpreting what people say in the fashion it was intended is less than great. I'd rather refer to tangibles if we're going to re-hash the past (not that I see the point now that you actually seem to understand the available options).

Metta,
Retro.

[Jhana4]

Getting back to suggestions for how things are done on the board.

Send people a PM when a post of theirs is moved from the original location. Let them know why it was moved and where it is.

If a post or content of theirs is deleted, let them know why via a PM.

I think it is unlikely that people in these situations will feel completely neutral about these actions, but I think contacting them about it is a courtesy that will make the situation less of a tension than it has to be.

[andre9999]

I'm going to throw my unsolicited two cents in, and then ignore this thread afterward.

Tilt's posts, along with a few other non-mods I can think of, are quite terse (I really like Tilt, BTW). Every so often they rub me the wrong way. But when I've had posts that were deleted I knew exactly why it happened, and I didn't need to go create a blog about it.

But I don't like this thread. I don't like that we've reached a point where there are PMs posted in a public thread... I see nothing constructive about that other than making Jechbi feel good by letting him get back at Tilt. I didn't really know of or have any opinion of Jechbi prior to this thread, but this is the most pathetic temper tantrums I've seen in the past few years, and I'm the father of a three-year old. Honestly Jeff, grow a pair.

[Ben]

Hi Jhana4

You started a discussion thread yesterday (my time) "Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring?" but continued the same discussion in "Letting go of longing for a relationship". I merely moved those posts which were a continuation of Do you really find the Dhamma inspiring? back to that thread, thereby maintaining the integrity of "Letting go of longing for a relationship".
The TOS are clear that off-topic posts are removed from view or moved routinely and without warning. And I think you've been here long enough to understand that the mods and admins actively moderate DW and often place in-thread reqests to members to 'stay on-topic'. Sometimes, I have the time to tell members when posts are removed, but days like today when I am extremely busy, I don't have the time.
As I mentioned earlier, there is so much each of us can do to improve our experience of DW, and remaining on-topic is one very small way to effect change.
kind regards

Ben