Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Hanzze
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Hanzze »

tiltbillings wrote:
Hanzze wrote:If there is no more person, one could quit practice. He fulfilled his tasks.
No person in the first place, no need to practice.
Thats why he teaches sometimes that and sometimes that :-) mind is tricky
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

Hanzze wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Hanzze wrote:If there is no more person, one could quit practice. He fulfilled his tasks.
No person in the first place, no need to practice.
Thats why he teaches sometimes that and sometimes that :-) mind is tricky
Damdifino what you just said.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by alan »

Hamzze serves as comic relief. A useful function.
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Hanzze
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Hanzze »

Was something wrong?
Do you think a comic is less real than a movie with real people? The advantage of a comic is that the most will not take it as real. I like comics, not so much danger of delusion. Just a monkey quote. :-)
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:Hamzze serves as comic relief. A useful function.
It helps if the comic can be understood.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
alan
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by alan »

Agreed. In this case, the comic is known to be a joker. No need to pay attention.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:Agreed. In this case, the comic is known to be a joker. No need to pay attention.
I am a moderator; I am supposed to pay attention.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Hanzze
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Hanzze »

Was something wrong? Just to help a comic figure... :-)
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

Hanzze wrote:Was something wrong? Just to help a comic figure... :-)
Relax. Nothing is wrong. I did not understand your msg above, but it is no big deal.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Hanzze
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Hanzze »

I admirer your sovereignty tiltbillings. Changing from a fox to a smart mouse. :twothumbsup:
I call you the greatest teacher her on board! That is like all the time, said honest!
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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mikenz66
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: No one is arguing in favour of an agent.
Not in the sense of a separate soul, but "agent" was the technical term used in the paper I and others quoted:
http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/3142/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Although the Buddha denied ultimate agency—the singular point from which soul
ultimately controls the body—he acknowledged moral choice and personal retribution.
The agent in this case is nothing but a collection of physical and mental processes,
but as such it can still choose what to do.
:anjali:
Mike
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Hanzze
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Hanzze »

So study Buddhism is nothing else than to bring down a real peaceful democracy into the collections of all particles and influences one consist of. So we can call it "personal" Democratism.
Maybe someone can translate it, I guess my lack of language is real comic *haha*
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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robertk
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by robertk »

tiltbillings wrote:That is playing with words. If there is no person, then there is no practice.
Actually there is not and never was any person. There is however dukkha and the path leading to the ending of dukkha.
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Hanzze
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Hanzze »

Dear robertk,
Good quote! But do dukkha have a choice to end it? :-)
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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robertk
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by robertk »

________
I wrote this a while back based on the Dhammapada: The Buddha said (my translation): 279:
"Sabbe dhamma anattati, yada paaya passati; atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiya"ti."

All dhammas are not-self: when one sees this with insight then one is detached (or disenchanted, nibbindati) from dukkha, This is the Path (magga)to Purity (visuddhi
).

The commentary says:

Tattha sabbe dhammati paakkhandha eva adhippeta.

Here(tattha)by all (sabbe) phenomena (dhammati), five aggregates (pancakkhandha) is meant (adhippeta).

Anattati "ma jiyantu ma miyantu"ti vase vattetum na sakkati
avasavattanatthena anatta attasua assamika anissarati attho.

Are not-self (anattati) because Birth(jiyantu), decay and death (miyantu) are not able to have power exercised over them (vase vattetum na). In the sense of powerlessness (avasavattanatthena) anatta, void of self (attasu~n~na).

RobertK
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