Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:21 am

Individual wrote:As I see it, then, this question is improperly framed, in terms of self: You ask do "we" have choice, but there is no person to attribute or not attribute freedom to, nor did the Buddha outright support or oppose the idea of agenthood. But rather, your question should instead be, "Is there a practice leading to freedom?" And the answer is: Yes. The Noble Eightfold path. :)
That is playing with words. If there is no person, then there is no practice.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19632
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Postby Hanzze » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:27 am

If there is no more person, one could quit practice. He fulfilled his tasks.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
User avatar
Hanzze
 
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:28 am

Hanzze wrote:If there is no more person, one could quit practice. He fulfilled his tasks.
No person in the first place, no need to practice.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19632
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Postby Hanzze » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:32 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Hanzze wrote:If there is no more person, one could quit practice. He fulfilled his tasks.
No person in the first place, no need to practice.

Thats why he teaches sometimes that and sometimes that :-) mind is tricky
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
User avatar
Hanzze
 
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:33 am

Hanzze wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Hanzze wrote:If there is no more person, one could quit practice. He fulfilled his tasks.
No person in the first place, no need to practice.

Thats why he teaches sometimes that and sometimes that :-) mind is tricky
Damdifino what you just said.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19632
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Postby alan » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:35 am

Hamzze serves as comic relief. A useful function.
alan
 
Posts: 2555
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Postby Hanzze » Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:42 am

Was something wrong?
Do you think a comic is less real than a movie with real people? The advantage of a comic is that the most will not take it as real. I like comics, not so much danger of delusion. Just a monkey quote. :-)
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
User avatar
Hanzze
 
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:32 am

alan wrote:Hamzze serves as comic relief. A useful function.
It helps if the comic can be understood.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19632
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Postby alan » Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:36 am

Agreed. In this case, the comic is known to be a joker. No need to pay attention.
alan
 
Posts: 2555
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:39 am

alan wrote:Agreed. In this case, the comic is known to be a joker. No need to pay attention.
I am a moderator; I am supposed to pay attention.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19632
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Postby Hanzze » Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:41 am

Was something wrong? Just to help a comic figure... :-)
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
User avatar
Hanzze
 
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:49 am

Hanzze wrote:Was something wrong? Just to help a comic figure... :-)
Relax. Nothing is wrong. I did not understand your msg above, but it is no big deal.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19632
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Postby Hanzze » Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:55 am

I admirer your sovereignty tiltbillings. Changing from a fox to a smart mouse. :twothumbsup:
I call you the greatest teacher her on board! That is like all the time, said honest!
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
User avatar
Hanzze
 
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:41 am

retrofuturist wrote:No one is arguing in favour of an agent.

Not in the sense of a separate soul, but "agent" was the technical term used in the paper I and others quoted:
http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/3142/
Although the Buddha denied ultimate agency—the singular point from which soul
ultimately controls the body—he acknowledged moral choice and personal retribution.
The agent in this case is nothing but a collection of physical and mental processes,
but as such it can still choose what to do.

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10420
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Postby Hanzze » Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:49 am

So study Buddhism is nothing else than to bring down a real peaceful democracy into the collections of all particles and influences one consist of. So we can call it "personal" Democratism.
Maybe someone can translate it, I guess my lack of language is real comic *haha*
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
User avatar
Hanzze
 
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Postby robertk » Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:49 am

tiltbillings wrote:That is playing with words. If there is no person, then there is no practice.

Actually there is not and never was any person. There is however dukkha and the path leading to the ending of dukkha.
User avatar
robertk
 
Posts: 1270
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Postby Hanzze » Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:00 am

Dear robertk,
Good quote! But do dukkha have a choice to end it? :-)
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
User avatar
Hanzze
 
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Postby robertk » Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:12 am

________
I wrote this a while back based on the Dhammapada: The Buddha said (my translation): 279:
"Sabbe dhamma anattati, yada paaya passati; atha nibbindati dukkhe, esa maggo visuddhiya"ti."

All dhammas are not-self: when one sees this with insight then one is detached (or disenchanted, nibbindati) from dukkha, This is the Path (magga)to Purity (visuddhi
).

The commentary says:

Tattha sabbe dhammati paakkhandha eva adhippeta.

Here(tattha)by all (sabbe) phenomena (dhammati), five aggregates (pancakkhandha) is meant (adhippeta).

Anattati "ma jiyantu ma miyantu"ti vase vattetum na sakkati
avasavattanatthena anatta attasua assamika anissarati attho.

Are not-self (anattati) because Birth(jiyantu), decay and death (miyantu) are not able to have power exercised over them (vase vattetum na). In the sense of powerlessness (avasavattanatthena) anatta, void of self (attasu~n~na).

RobertK
User avatar
robertk
 
Posts: 1270
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Postby Hanzze » Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:17 am

Dear robertk,

so does that insight comes by it self or is it forced/choose? Or is dukkha insight?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
User avatar
Hanzze
 
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:17 am

robertk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That is playing with words. If there is no person, then there is no practice.

Actually there is not and never was any person. There is however dukkha and the path leading to the ending of dukkha.
Not quite true. For us unawakened folk there is a self with which we have to contend which does not completely go away until we are fully awakened. Even a mirage has a reality that may need to be dealt with. Also, practice and suffering have no essence.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19632
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Coyote, SarathW and 9 guests