Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

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Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:37 am

[ NOTE: Split from viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6353 ]

Greetings,

Regarding whether arahants experience vipaka or not...

"Listen, Udayi. A bhikkhu in this Teaching and Discipline cultivates the Mindfulness Enlightenment Factor ... the Equanimity Enlightenment Factor, which tend to seclusion, tend to dispassion, tend to cessation, which are well developed, which are boundless, void of irritation. Having cultivated the Mindfulness Enlightenment Factor ... the Equanimity Enlightenment Factor ... craving is discarded. With the discarding of craving, kamma is discarded. With the discarding of kamma, suffering is discarded. Thus, with the ending of craving there is the ending of kamma; with the ending of kamma there is the ending of suffering."
S.V.86 (S.19/450/123) - http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/kamma9.htm#41

Arahants have discarded vipaka/suffering.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby Modus.Ponens » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:51 am

Hi retro

Wouldn't the case of Angulimala being stoned after he attained nibbana be a case of vipaka?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:55 am

Greetings Modus Ponens,

Modus.Ponens wrote:Wouldn't the case of Angulimala being stoned after he attained nibbana be a case of vipaka?

If you believe the commentarial explanation, then yes, it would be.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby cooran » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:20 am

Hello Retro,

From the Suttas:
MN 86 Angulimala Sutta: About Angulimala

Then Ven. Angulimala, dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus Ven. Angulimala became another one of the arahants.
Then Ven. Angulimala, early in the morning, having put on his robes and carrying his outer robe & bowl, went into Savatthi for alms. Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!" [3]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

with metta
Chris
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:24 am

Greetings Cooran,

I can respond, but I would need to split this Angulimala side-line into a new topic in order to do so.

Please advise if you would like me to do that (although if you don't feel like it, you'll find the answer in the bolded word "would" - i.e. would have, if you weren't now an arahant, but since you are, it won't... and also in remembering that vipaka is mental, as explained by ven. Nyanaponika in his Buddhist Dictionary, and that clods aren't mental)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby cooran » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:33 am

Hello Retro,

Yes, I'd be interested in further discussion.

with metta
Chris
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:37 am

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:Wouldn't the case of Angulimala being stoned after he attained nibbana be a case of vipaka?

If you believe the commentarial explanation, then yes, it would be.

retrofuturist wrote:... and also in remembering that vipaka is mental, as explained by ven. Nyanaponika in his Buddhist Dictionary, and that clods aren't mental)

My impression is that the classification of vipaka as mental and other terms for material results of kamma is a commentarial/abhidhammic distinction. I may be wrong, but I don't think that the Suttas (such as the one quoted above) make such a distinction. E.g. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html
"Here, Punna, someone develops the dog duty fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog-habit fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog mind fully and unstintingly, he develops dog behavior fully and unstintingly. Having done that, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of dogs.


Here is Ven Nyanaaponika's dictionary entry:
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... ip%C4%81ka
Vipāka: 'kamma-result' or 'effect of action', is any kammically morally neutral mental phenomenon e.g. bodily pleasant or painful feeling, sense-consciousness, etc., which is the result of advantageous or disadvantageous intentional action kamma through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some previous life. Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, everything is the result of previous action. Never, for example, is any kammically advantageous or disadvantageous intentional action the result of former action, being in reality itself kamma. On this subject see: titthāyatana kamma, Tab. I; Fund II. Cf. A. III, 101; Kath. 162 Guide, p. 80.

Kamma-produced kammaja or kamma-samutthāna material things are never called kamma-vipāka as this term may be applied only to mental phenomena.

:anjali:
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:50 am

Greetings Chris,

OK... I've split the posts out, so we're free to discuss in more detail now.

My contention is that arahants do not experience vipaka, the mental resultant of kamma.

To start with, let's take a definition from Venerable Nyanaponika - http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/bu ... dic3_v.htm

vipāka: 'kamma-result', is any kammically (morally) neutral mental phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful feeling, sense-consciousness, etc. ), which is the result of wholesome or unwholesome volitional action (kamma, q.v.) through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some previous life. Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, everything is the result of previous action. Never, for example, is any kammically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being in reality itself kamma. On this subject s. titthāyatana, kamma, Tab. I; Fund II. Cf. A. III, 101; Kath. 162 (Guide, p. 80).

Kamma-produced (kammaja or kamma-samuṭṭhāna) corporeal things are never called kamma-vipāka, as this term may be applied only to mental phenomena.


I will take it as assumed, that we all agree new kamma is not created by an arahant, so we're left only with the question of what happens with regards to old kamma.

I will also assume that is it agreed that at the death of the arahant there is no active/outstanding kamma, hence there is no jati/birth (however one might choose to translate it).

The question is then, is there some mechanism by which old kamma can, or must, come to fruition in the interim between arahantship and parinibbana.

I say no, for the reason that by attaining the wisdom of arahantship, the arahant has discarded any false experience of a self, and succeeded in abadoning craving. This sutta extract explains it clearly.

"Listen, Udayi. A bhikkhu in this Teaching and Discipline cultivates the Mindfulness Enlightenment Factor ... the Equanimity Enlightenment Factor, which tend to seclusion, tend to dispassion, tend to cessation, which are well developed, which are boundless, void of irritation. Having cultivated the Mindfulness Enlightenment Factor ... the Equanimity Enlightenment Factor ... craving is discarded. With the discarding of craving, kamma is discarded. With the discarding of kamma, suffering is discarded. Thus, with the ending of craving there is the ending of kamma; with the ending of kamma there is the ending of suffering."S.V.86 (S.19/450/123) - http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/kamma9.htm#41

It is not a case of whether these old kamma is destroyed, it is about whether it is abandoned or discarded. The arahant has successfully abandoned the false barrier differentiating agent (self) and act (kamma) and no longer conceives of self, so it would be wrong of us to superimpose the putthujana viewpoint of a self back onto the arahant's experience (i.e. that "the arahant" must/can suffer because of what "the person" did)

The arahant doesn't need to concern him/herself with whether old kamma is destroyed (i.e. whether it exists or not)... because there is longer any basis by which it could come to fruition.

As per SN 12.15...

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

That shall suffice for now...

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby cooran » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:01 am

Hello Retro,

Vipaka doesn't mean suffering. Vipaka is the result of action (kamma).

I’m interested in what the Buddha said and meant here ‘’ Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!" [3]

If there is no physical feeling associated with vipaka (the results of kamma) for an Arahant, – why is he telling Angulimala to ‘bear with it!’ and consoling him that the alternative to what he is experiencing now would have been burning in hell for thousands of years.

My understanding is that even the Buddha and the arahants have pleasant, unpleasant or neutral feelings because of contact with sense-objects. They feel pain that arises from physical affliction but they do not suffer mentally, nor do they take delight in pleasant sensations.

Not suffering mentally doesn’t mean there is no vipaka. Nor does it mean they don’t experience physical sensations.

With metta
Chris
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:22 am

Hi Chris,
cooran wrote:My understanding is that even the Buddha and the arahants have pleasant, unpleasant or neutral feelings because of contact with sense-objects. They feel pain that arises from physical affliction but they do not suffer mentally, nor do they take delight in pleasant sensations.

Yes, that's my understanding. There may be better references, but this is the easiest one to find.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html
"But in the case of a well-taught noble disciple, O monks, when he is touched by a painful feeling, he will not worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. It is one kind of feeling he experiences, a bodily one, but not a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart, but was not hit by a second dart following the first one. So this person experiences feelings caused by a single dart only. It is similar with a well-taught noble disciple: when touched by a painful feeling, he will no worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. He experiences one single feeling, a bodily one.

Retro, you didn't address my query whether the classification of vipaka as purely mental (and physical results of kamma having a different name) is an abhidhamma/commentary development. Is there a Sutta reference about this?

:anjali:
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:33 am

Greetings Cooran,

cooran wrote:Vipaka doesn't mean suffering. Vipaka is the result of action (kamma).

But is there any suffering which is not vipaka? That makes for an interesting question.

Is "unpleasant sensation" suffering, in and of itself. Does a Buddha "suffer"? Another interesting question that could probably spawn a length discussion.

Anyway, I just want to re-iterate that my comment which launched this splinter topic is "Arahants have discarded vipaka/suffering." That is the point I'm arguing in favour of here. If you wish to take that to refer to "vipaka and suffering" then that's fine by me. Likewise if you wish to take that as "suffering in the form of vipaka".

Metta
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Individual » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:02 am

retrofuturist wrote:[ NOTE: Split from http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6353 ]

Greetings,

Regarding whether arahants experience vipaka or not...

"Listen, Udayi. A bhikkhu in this Teaching and Discipline cultivates the Mindfulness Enlightenment Factor ... the Equanimity Enlightenment Factor, which tend to seclusion, tend to dispassion, tend to cessation, which are well developed, which are boundless, void of irritation. Having cultivated the Mindfulness Enlightenment Factor ... the Equanimity Enlightenment Factor ... craving is discarded. With the discarding of craving, kamma is discarded. With the discarding of kamma, suffering is discarded. Thus, with the ending of craving there is the ending of kamma; with the ending of kamma there is the ending of suffering."
S.V.86 (S.19/450/123) - http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/kamma9.htm#41

Arahants have discarded vipaka/suffering.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Kamma and suffering do not equate with vipaka.

There is no new karma and any unpleasant vipakas (even mental ones) are not regarded as suffering because they are not regarded as self.
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Individual » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:06 am

Hmm. A logical question just came to me: If past rebirths are innumerable and an Arahant must exhaust his old karma before entering parinibbana, would his old karma (and therefore continually arising vipakas) not also be innumerable? :)
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Virgo » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:09 am

Arahat make no new kamma. The vipaka or fruit of old kamma is still experienced until parinibanna; however, there is always mental ease for the Arahant even if stoned or hit because there is no aversion or attachment present.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Virgo » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:13 am

Individual wrote:Hmm. A logical question just came to me: If past rebirths are innumerable and an Arahant must exhaust his old karma before entering parinibbana, would his old karma (and therefore continually arising vipakas) not also be innumerable? :)

Hi Indi,

I don't believe the Arahant has to exhaust his old vipaka before attaining parinibbana (final nibbana). What happens is, once the vipaka that sustains the life force of that body is finished, the Arahant reaches parinibanna as opposed to being reborn (all causes of rebirth removed for the Arahant). So, since the Arahant has removed all causes of further rebirth after that life by removing all the fetters that bind one to samasara or cause becoming, and since at the time of his death, finally, the vipaka that sustains his life force runs out He is not reborn and in a sense transecends or goes beyond any and all other vipaka that may have been or ripened since the causes of it's frution are removed due to the fact that birth cannot and will not occur again for the Arahant.

Be well,

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:22 am

Greetings Mike, all,

A quick warning... put on your Nanananda hat, or you may get quickly lost! :juggling:

mikenz66 wrote:Retro, you didn't address my query whether the classification of vipaka as purely mental (and physical results of kamma having a different name) is an abhidhamma/commentary development.

Yes, such are the peril of fire drills, but I'm back now.

mikenz66 wrote:Is there a Sutta reference about this?

I don't know if it's specifically addressed in such detail, but I can assure you I wouldn't be bringing it in as a reference if it was inconsistent with the treatment of kamma in the suttas. Even more important perhaps than vipaka being mental, is that it is experienced... to which extent AN 6.63 - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html - provides the following...

"And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now, that which arises later, and that which arises following that. This is called the result of kamma.

"And what is the cessation of kamma? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration — is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

Interestingly two causes for the cessation of kamma are given - the Noble Eightfold Path as one, with the other being "From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma". Now, since we're all agreed that an arahant does not create kamma, in keeping with AN 6.63 we then must accept that the cessation of contact has also occurred.

Yet clearly, the arahant is still sentient - so contact (phassa) cannot simply mean the coming together of senses and data input. To that end, in defining this "phassa" which has ceased for the arahant, I find the following explanation from Nanavira Thera to be satisfactory...

Nanavira Thera wrote:So long as there is avijjá, all things (dhammá) are fundamentally as described in the earlier part of the Múlapariyáyasutta (Majjhima i,1 <M.i,1>); that is to say, they are inherently in subjection, they are appropriated, they are mine. This is the foundation of the notion that I am and that things are in contact with me. This contact between me and things is phassa.

It makes sense that this has ended for the arahant who has followed the Noble Eightfold Path through to its fulfilment and is, as far as I can tell, the only sensible way to reconcile this sutta on kamma with what the Buddha says elsewhere of the arahant. The suttas also tell us, via teachings on dependent origination, that from the cessation of contact (phassa) comes the cessation of feeling (vedana).

Obviously, that's rather confronting (particularly in terms of its consequences for satipatthana/vipassana meditation), and it gives cause to sit up and think about precisely what vedana actually means in terms of the experience of an arahant who has achieved the cessation of avijja (and thus, the cessation of vedana). I do not believe it is right to superimpose our putthujana concepts/experiences of what vedana is onto that of the arahant, lest there be some nuance of the arahant's experience that we misunderstand on account of us not being arahants ourselves.

To follow on then from the above structural explanation for phassa, transposed to fit vedana... "they (feelings) are inherently in subjection, they are appropriated, they are mine. This is the foundation of the notion that I am and that I feel things. This perception of me feeling things is vedana."

It's a fundamental mindshift from how we would conventionally conceive things like phassa and vedana, but I think it's correct, consistent with the suttas, and sheds new light on suttas such as SN 25.5 - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html - which say...

"Monks, feeling born of eye-contact is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Feeling born of ear-contact... Feeling born of nose-contact... Feeling born of tongue-contact... Feeling born of body-contact... Feeling born of intellect-contact is inconstant, changeable, alterable.


Thus feeling is not an objective thing that exists or not, it a subjective perceptual experience, dependent upon avijja (as per SN 12.15).

And so on and so forth... throughout the remainder of the dependent cessation sequence, but we needn't go that far, because this brings us into contact with the sutta in the original post that states, "with the discarding of craving, kamma is discarded. With the discarding of kamma, suffering is discarded." I hope the above explanation gives some indication as to why the translation uses the word "discarded". By shedding notions of "I", anything associated with that "I" is discarded too, like the scales on a discarded snake-skin.

So coming back to the subject of kamma and its resultant (broadly defined, omitting at your request any Abhidhammic classification)... how does the arahant experience phassa? How does the arahant experience vedana? According to the explanation provided above... they don't, because avijja has ceased.

If they don't, likewise, how can they experience vipaka? They can't.

In other words, through arahantship they have transcended that whole net of moral causality that comes with the false experience of an "I". Or put another way, by removing the "subject", you remove the potential for "subjective experience", and open the doors to the deathless.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby cooran » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:38 am

Virgo wrote:
Individual wrote:Hmm. A logical question just came to me: If past rebirths are innumerable and an Arahant must exhaust his old karma before entering parinibbana, would his old karma (and therefore continually arising vipakas) not also be innumerable? :)

Hi Indi,

I don't believe the Arahant has to exhaust his old vipaka before attaining parinibbana (final nibbana). What happens is, once the vipaka that sustains the life force of that body is finished, the Arahant reaches parinibanna as opposed to being reborn (all causes of rebirth removed for the Arahant).

Kevin

Hello Kevin, Individual,

From Bhikkhu Bodhi:
Types of Kamma based on the time of fruition

Kamma can produce results at different times, even in different lives. The Buddha says that there are three types of kammas distinguished by way of time of ripening. There are kammas which ripen in this lifetime, kammas which ripen in the next lifetime and kammas that ripen some lifetime after the next. The last kind of kamma is the strongest. The first two kinds become defunct if they don't find an opening. They will never ripen if they don't get the opportunity to ripen either in the present life or in the next life.
But the third type remains with us as long as we continue in Samsara. It can bring its results even after hundreds and thousands of aeons in the future. This time lag help us to understand what might seem to be a discrepancy in the working of kamma. Often we see good people who meet with much suffering and bad people who meet with great success and good fortune. This is due to the time lag. The good man is reaping the results of a bad kamma of the past. But he will eventually gain the pleasant results from the good kammas he is performing now. In the same way, the bad man is enjoying the results of his good kammas of the past. But in the future he will meet with the fruition of his bad kammas and must undergo suffering.
http://www.beyondthenet.net/dhamma/kammaFruition.htm

with metta
Chris
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---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:56 am

Sorry, retro, your reasoning is much too convoluted for me to follow. You'll have to do better than claiming:
retrofuturist wrote:I don't know if it's specifically addressed in such detail, but I can assure you I wouldn't be bringing it in as a reference if it was inconsistent with the treatment of kamma in the suttas.

And as for this:
retrofuturist wrote:So coming back to the subject of kamma and its resultant (broadly defined, omitting at your request any Abhidhammic classification)... how does the arahant experience phassa? How does the arahant experience vedana? According to the explanation provided above... they don't, because avijja has ceased.

What about the Sutta I quoted where vedana was experienced?

And the Angulimala Sutta?

Mike

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:12 am

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:Sorry, retro, your reasoning is much too convoluted for me to follow.

I thought it might be, but it was worth a try.

mikenz66 wrote:You'll have to do better than claiming...

If I want to convince you I might need to do better, but it's not really my intention to convince you - it is merely to explain the logic behind my assertion at the beginning of this split topic (and defend the sutta quote in S.V.86), whether you follow it or not. I'm loathed to mention the words lest it get your back up, but it's an explanation rooted in a phenomenological approach to the Dhamma, rather than an ontological one. I don't expect or require others to accept it, though I would be pleased if they did as it might generate some interesting discussion. I accept the phenomenological approach is not for everyone, but also don't sit by idly at ontological approaches that presume to trump it.

mikenz66 wrote:What about the Sutta I quoted where vedana was experienced?

Sekhas and putthujjanas experience vedana, and it was a sutta to those in training, not those who had completed it.

mikenz66 wrote:And the Angulimala Sutta?

What about it, exactly? From where I sit, the onus seems to be more on those who suggest the Buddha and the arahants didn't actually conquer suffering (during their lifetime, prior to parinibbana) to explain their position, especially in light of fundamental doctrines such as the Four Noble Truths. If the Buddha didn't conquer suffering in his lifetime (at the age of 35 was it?), what justification did he have for preaching the Dhamma for more than half his lifetime? Arguably such allegations would make a liar of the Buddha - something I'm certainly not intending to do. I believe the arahants (incl. the Buddha) eradicated all suffering at the point of attaining arahantship, and that they transcended all kamma-vipaka, through the attainment of arahantship.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Postby Individual » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:22 am

Cooran, I understand this part is in the suttas:
cooran wrote:The Buddha says that there are three types of kammas distinguished by way of time of ripening. There are kammas which ripen in this lifetime, kammas which ripen in the next lifetime and kammas that ripen some lifetime after the next.


However, is this part just something established by the commentaries:
The last kind of kamma is the strongest. The first two kinds become defunct if they don't find an opening. They will never ripen if they don't get the opportunity to ripen either in the present life or in the next life. But the third type remains with us as long as we continue in Samsara. It can bring its results even after hundreds and thousands of aeons in the future.

If past rebirths are innumerable and the third type of karma exists, why should there not result in innumerable aeons of vipaka, even for an Arahant? In his past, he had innumerable lives where he generate all three kinds of karma, so how could any of it ever be exhausted?
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra


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