Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

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retrofuturist
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Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

[ NOTE: Split from http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6353" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ]

Greetings,

Regarding whether arahants experience vipaka or not...

"Listen, Udayi. A bhikkhu in this Teaching and Discipline cultivates the Mindfulness Enlightenment Factor ... the Equanimity Enlightenment Factor, which tend to seclusion, tend to dispassion, tend to cessation, which are well developed, which are boundless, void of irritation. Having cultivated the Mindfulness Enlightenment Factor ... the Equanimity Enlightenment Factor ... craving is discarded. With the discarding of craving, kamma is discarded. With the discarding of kamma, suffering is discarded. Thus, with the ending of craving there is the ending of kamma; with the ending of kamma there is the ending of suffering."
S.V.86 (S.19/450/123) - http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/kamma9.htm#41" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Arahants have discarded vipaka/suffering.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Hi retro

Wouldn't the case of Angulimala being stoned after he attained nibbana be a case of vipaka?
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Modus Ponens,
Modus.Ponens wrote:Wouldn't the case of Angulimala being stoned after he attained nibbana be a case of vipaka?
If you believe the commentarial explanation, then yes, it would be.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Post by cooran »

Hello Retro,

From the Suttas:
MN 86 Angulimala Sutta: About Angulimala

Then Ven. Angulimala, dwelling alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute, in no long time reached & remained in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now. He knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." And thus Ven. Angulimala became another one of the arahants.
Then Ven. Angulimala, early in the morning, having put on his robes and carrying his outer robe & bowl, went into Savatthi for alms. Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!" [3]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Cooran,

I can respond, but I would need to split this Angulimala side-line into a new topic in order to do so.

Please advise if you would like me to do that (although if you don't feel like it, you'll find the answer in the bolded word "would" - i.e. would have, if you weren't now an arahant, but since you are, it won't... and also in remembering that vipaka is mental, as explained by ven. Nyanaponika in his Buddhist Dictionary, and that clods aren't mental)

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Post by cooran »

Hello Retro,

Yes, I'd be interested in further discussion.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
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Re: forest tradition , permanent state

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:Wouldn't the case of Angulimala being stoned after he attained nibbana be a case of vipaka?
If you believe the commentarial explanation, then yes, it would be.
retrofuturist wrote: ... and also in remembering that vipaka is mental, as explained by ven. Nyanaponika in his Buddhist Dictionary, and that clods aren't mental)
My impression is that the classification of vipaka as mental and other terms for material results of kamma is a commentarial/abhidhammic distinction. I may be wrong, but I don't think that the Suttas (such as the one quoted above) make such a distinction. E.g. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Here, Punna, someone develops the dog duty fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog-habit fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog mind fully and unstintingly, he develops dog behavior fully and unstintingly. Having done that, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of dogs.
Here is Ven Nyanaaponika's dictionary entry:
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... ip%C4%81ka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Vipāka: 'kamma-result' or 'effect of action', is any kammically morally neutral mental phenomenon e.g. bodily pleasant or painful feeling, sense-consciousness, etc., which is the result of advantageous or disadvantageous intentional action kamma through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some previous life. Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, everything is the result of previous action. Never, for example, is any kammically advantageous or disadvantageous intentional action the result of former action, being in reality itself kamma. On this subject see: titthāyatana kamma, Tab. I; Fund II. Cf. A. III, 101; Kath. 162 Guide, p. 80.

Kamma-produced kammaja or kamma-samutthāna material things are never called kamma-vipāka as this term may be applied only to mental phenomena.
:anjali:
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chris,

OK... I've split the posts out, so we're free to discuss in more detail now.

My contention is that arahants do not experience vipaka, the mental resultant of kamma.

To start with, let's take a definition from Venerable Nyanaponika - http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/bu ... dic3_v.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
vipāka: 'kamma-result', is any kammically (morally) neutral mental phenomenon (e.g. bodily agreeable or painful feeling, sense-consciousness, etc. ), which is the result of wholesome or unwholesome volitional action (kamma, q.v.) through body, speech or mind, done either in this or some previous life. Totally wrong is the belief that, according to Buddhism, everything is the result of previous action. Never, for example, is any kammically wholesome or unwholesome volitional action the result of former action, being in reality itself kamma. On this subject s. titthāyatana, kamma, Tab. I; Fund II. Cf. A. III, 101; Kath. 162 (Guide, p. 80).

Kamma-produced (kammaja or kamma-samuṭṭhāna) corporeal things are never called kamma-vipāka, as this term may be applied only to mental phenomena.
I will take it as assumed, that we all agree new kamma is not created by an arahant, so we're left only with the question of what happens with regards to old kamma.

I will also assume that is it agreed that at the death of the arahant there is no active/outstanding kamma, hence there is no jati/birth (however one might choose to translate it).

The question is then, is there some mechanism by which old kamma can, or must, come to fruition in the interim between arahantship and parinibbana.

I say no, for the reason that by attaining the wisdom of arahantship, the arahant has discarded any false experience of a self, and succeeded in abadoning craving. This sutta extract explains it clearly.

"Listen, Udayi. A bhikkhu in this Teaching and Discipline cultivates the Mindfulness Enlightenment Factor ... the Equanimity Enlightenment Factor, which tend to seclusion, tend to dispassion, tend to cessation, which are well developed, which are boundless, void of irritation. Having cultivated the Mindfulness Enlightenment Factor ... the Equanimity Enlightenment Factor ... craving is discarded. With the discarding of craving, kamma is discarded. With the discarding of kamma, suffering is discarded. Thus, with the ending of craving there is the ending of kamma; with the ending of kamma there is the ending of suffering."S.V.86 (S.19/450/123) - http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/kamma9.htm#41" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is not a case of whether these old kamma is destroyed, it is about whether it is abandoned or discarded. The arahant has successfully abandoned the false barrier differentiating agent (self) and act (kamma) and no longer conceives of self, so it would be wrong of us to superimpose the putthujana viewpoint of a self back onto the arahant's experience (i.e. that "the arahant" must/can suffer because of what "the person" did)

The arahant doesn't need to concern him/herself with whether old kamma is destroyed (i.e. whether it exists or not)... because there is longer any basis by which it could come to fruition.

As per SN 12.15...
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
That shall suffice for now...

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by cooran »

Hello Retro,

Vipaka doesn't mean suffering. Vipaka is the result of action (kamma).

I’m interested in what the Buddha said and meant here ‘’ Now at that time a clod thrown by one person hit Ven. Angulimala on the body, a stone thrown by another person hit him on the body, and a potsherd thrown by still another person hit him on the body. So Ven. Angulimala — his head broken open and dripping with blood, his bowl broken, and his outer robe ripped to shreds — went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming from afar and on seeing him said to him: "Bear with it, brahman! Bear with it! The fruit of the kamma that would have burned you in hell for many years, many hundreds of years, many thousands of years, you are now experiencing in the here-&-now!" [3]

If there is no physical feeling associated with vipaka (the results of kamma) for an Arahant, – why is he telling Angulimala to ‘bear with it!’ and consoling him that the alternative to what he is experiencing now would have been burning in hell for thousands of years.

My understanding is that even the Buddha and the arahants have pleasant, unpleasant or neutral feelings because of contact with sense-objects. They feel pain that arises from physical affliction but they do not suffer mentally, nor do they take delight in pleasant sensations.

Not suffering mentally doesn’t mean there is no vipaka. Nor does it mean they don’t experience physical sensations.

With metta
Chris
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Chris,
cooran wrote: My understanding is that even the Buddha and the arahants have pleasant, unpleasant or neutral feelings because of contact with sense-objects. They feel pain that arises from physical affliction but they do not suffer mentally, nor do they take delight in pleasant sensations.
Yes, that's my understanding. There may be better references, but this is the easiest one to find.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"But in the case of a well-taught noble disciple, O monks, when he is touched by a painful feeling, he will not worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. It is one kind of feeling he experiences, a bodily one, but not a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart, but was not hit by a second dart following the first one. So this person experiences feelings caused by a single dart only. It is similar with a well-taught noble disciple: when touched by a painful feeling, he will no worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. He experiences one single feeling, a bodily one.
Retro, you didn't address my query whether the classification of vipaka as purely mental (and physical results of kamma having a different name) is an abhidhamma/commentary development. Is there a Sutta reference about this?

:anjali:
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Cooran,
cooran wrote:Vipaka doesn't mean suffering. Vipaka is the result of action (kamma).
But is there any suffering which is not vipaka? That makes for an interesting question.

Is "unpleasant sensation" suffering, in and of itself. Does a Buddha "suffer"? Another interesting question that could probably spawn a length discussion.

Anyway, I just want to re-iterate that my comment which launched this splinter topic is "Arahants have discarded vipaka/suffering." That is the point I'm arguing in favour of here. If you wish to take that to refer to "vipaka and suffering" then that's fine by me. Likewise if you wish to take that as "suffering in the form of vipaka".

Metta
Retro. :)
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Individual »

retrofuturist wrote:[ NOTE: Split from http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6353" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ]

Greetings,

Regarding whether arahants experience vipaka or not...

"Listen, Udayi. A bhikkhu in this Teaching and Discipline cultivates the Mindfulness Enlightenment Factor ... the Equanimity Enlightenment Factor, which tend to seclusion, tend to dispassion, tend to cessation, which are well developed, which are boundless, void of irritation. Having cultivated the Mindfulness Enlightenment Factor ... the Equanimity Enlightenment Factor ... craving is discarded. With the discarding of craving, kamma is discarded. With the discarding of kamma, suffering is discarded. Thus, with the ending of craving there is the ending of kamma; with the ending of kamma there is the ending of suffering."
S.V.86 (S.19/450/123) - http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/kamma9.htm#41" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Arahants have discarded vipaka/suffering.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Kamma and suffering do not equate with vipaka.

There is no new karma and any unpleasant vipakas (even mental ones) are not regarded as suffering because they are not regarded as self.
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Individual »

Hmm. A logical question just came to me: If past rebirths are innumerable and an Arahant must exhaust his old karma before entering parinibbana, would his old karma (and therefore continually arising vipakas) not also be innumerable? :)
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Virgo »

Arahat make no new kamma. The vipaka or fruit of old kamma is still experienced until parinibanna; however, there is always mental ease for the Arahant even if stoned or hit because there is no aversion or attachment present.

Kevin
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Re: Do arahants discard vipaka/suffering?

Post by Virgo »

Individual wrote:Hmm. A logical question just came to me: If past rebirths are innumerable and an Arahant must exhaust his old karma before entering parinibbana, would his old karma (and therefore continually arising vipakas) not also be innumerable? :)
Hi Indi,

I don't believe the Arahant has to exhaust his old vipaka before attaining parinibbana (final nibbana). What happens is, once the vipaka that sustains the life force of that body is finished, the Arahant reaches parinibanna as opposed to being reborn (all causes of rebirth removed for the Arahant). So, since the Arahant has removed all causes of further rebirth after that life by removing all the fetters that bind one to samasara or cause becoming, and since at the time of his death, finally, the vipaka that sustains his life force runs out He is not reborn and in a sense transecends or goes beyond any and all other vipaka that may have been or ripened since the causes of it's frution are removed due to the fact that birth cannot and will not occur again for the Arahant.

Be well,

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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