Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

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Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:59 am

Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions {Sn 1061-1068}
How can one become freed of all doubt?

translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[Dhotaka:]
I ask you, O Blessed One. Please tell me. I hope for your words, Great Seer. Having heard your pronouncement, I'll train for my own Unbinding.

[The Buddha:]
In that case, be ardent — astute & mindful right here. Then, having heard my pronouncement, train for your own Unbinding.

[Dhotaka:]
I see in the world of beings divine & human, a brahman who lives possessing nothing. I pay homage to him the All-around Eye. From my doubts, O Sakyan, release me!

[The Buddha:]
No one in the world, Dhotaka, can I release from doubting. But knowing the most excellent Dhamma, you will cross over the flood.

[Dhotaka:]
Teach with compassion, O brahman, the Dhamma of seclusion so that I may know — so that I, unafflicted as space, may live right here, independent, at peace.

[The Buddha:]
I will teach you peace — in the here & now, not quoted words — knowing which, living mindfully, you'll go beyond entanglement in the world.

[Dhotaka:]
And I relish, Great Seer, that peace supreme, knowing which, living mindfully, I'll go beyond entanglement in the world.

[The Buddha:]
Whatever you're alert to, above, below, across, in between: knowing it as a bond in the world, don't create craving for becoming or non-becoming.

NOTE

Craving for becoming and non-becoming (or dis-becoming) are the two most subtle forms of craving that lead to continued existence — and suffering — in the round of birth & death.

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Re: Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:08 am

5: Dhotakamàõavapucchà
The Young Man Dhotaka's Questions

Anandajoti Bhikkhu

http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... avaggo.pdf
Listen at: http://www.archive.org/details/The-Way-to-the-Beyond

I ask you, Gracious One, please tell this to me, said venerable Dhotaka,
I am waiting for a word of yours, Great Seer,
having heard your utterance I could train for my own Nibbàna.

Then you must become ardent, Dhotaka said the Gracious One,
being prudent and mindful right here,
henceforth, after hearing this utterance you should train for your own Nibbàna.

"I see in the world with its gods and men, said venerable Dhotaka
a brahmin who moves about having nothing,
therefore I revere you, All-Seeing Visionary,
O Sakyan, please free me from my doubts.

I will not be able to free
anyone in the world who is having doubts, Dhotaka,
but knowing (Nibbàna), the best thing,
in this way you can cross over the flood.
[Footnote: Confidence (saddhà) being a basis upon which to make effort.]

Brahmin! Being compassionate teach, said venerable Dhotaka,
the state of detachment that I should know,
then I, being undisturbed, just like the sky,
may live peaceful and independent right here.

I shall proclaim the peace to you, Dhotaka, said the Gracious One,
which is not hearsay here in the world,
which, having understood, and living mindfully, one can cross over clinging to the world.

I greatly rejoice in that supreme peace, Great Seer,
which, having understood, and living mindfully, one can cross over clinging to the world.

Whatever you know, Dhotaka, said the Gracious One,
above, below, and across the middle,
having understood this is called a shackle in the world,
you must not have craving for repeated existence.

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Re: Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

Postby kirk5a » Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:21 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:49 pm


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Re: Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

Postby kirk5a » Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:06 am

Hi Mike

Well the English word "becoming" has never gelled for me. What is "becoming" in a non-Dhamma context? When do we use this word "becoming"?

And so craving for becoming? It just doesn't register to my mind. Let's say I crave being a rock star - I don't craving "becoming" a rock star, I want to BE a rock star. I want the part where I am there, not the getting there. (I don't, just for sake of discussion. I crave less interesting things, like pickles. :smile: )

So for that reason, it makes more sense to me to say I crave "being" something rather than "becoming" something, because "becoming" sounds like the "getting there" part, which isn't really what I crave.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:48 pm


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Re: Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

Postby kirk5a » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:33 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

Postby kirk5a » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:46 pm

Whatever you're alert to, above, below, across, in between: knowing it as a bond in the world, don't create craving for becoming or non-becoming.

As I said before, this word "becoming" leaves me with a ? feeling. For my own comprehension, I would re-translate this as
"Whatever you're alert to, above, below, across, in between: knowing it as a bond in the world, don't create craving for it to be, or for it not to be." or maybe.. "don't create craving for being it, or not being it" hmm that would be an interesting twist.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:33 pm

Hi Kirk, That sounds like an interesting way of looking at it. I don't have anything useful to add right now, but I'm sure we'll have an opportunity to discuss it further in upcoming Snp and SN suttas...

:anjali:
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Re: Snp 5.5: Dhotaka-manava-puccha — Dhotaka's Questions

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:23 pm

Being aware of bonds or fetters:

"Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media? There is the case where he discerns the eye, he discerns forms, he discerns the fetter that arises dependent on both. He discerns how there is the arising of an unarisen fetter. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of a fetter once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of a fetter that has been abandoned. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining sense media: ear, nose, tongue, body, & intellect.)

"In this way he remains focused internally on the mental qualities in & of themselves, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

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