Did the Buddha teach we have choice? (aka The Great Free Will v Determinism Debate)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:He did not. Since it denies moral responsibility, he condemn that sort of thinking.

Good actions lead to good results, bad actions lead to bad results. What is is unethical there?
Since what you are advocating is that we are naught more than falling dominoes or another way of putting it is that we are naught more than a ball of string unravelling, there is no choice, no moral responsibility.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:He did not. Since it denies moral responsibility, he condemn that sort of thinking.

Good actions lead to good results, bad actions lead to bad results. What is is unethical there?
What is unethical, is that you are not taking into consideration the effect, within this grand scheme of causality, that the view of oneself as a marionette, would have.

Can the marionette, thinking of itself as a marionette, say to itself "I will not commit murder" ?

It also says to itself "I have no control over my actions"
Following Alex's point of view, we have no control of our committing murder, which puts murder on the same level as attaining awakening - just things that happen to us without our input for which we have no responsibility.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Alex123
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Alex123 »

kirk5a wrote: What is unethical, is that you are not taking into consideration the effect, within this grand scheme of causality, that the view of oneself as a marionette, would have.
Can the marionette, thinking of itself as a marionette, say to itself "I will not commit murder" ?
It also says to itself "I have no control over my actions"
Tilt wrote: Following Alex's point of view, we have no control of our committing murder, which puts murder on the same level as attaining awakening - just things that happen to us without our input for which we have no responsibility.
When one realizes that all things happen due to causes, and there are no really people, then if there is enough wisdom one will see the folly of getting angry.

When one realizes that past event has occured in only possible way that it could have occured, then one will not feel guilty and be stuck in the past "I should have done this instead of that."

If whatever happens now, happens the only way it ever could have happened given all the conditions - then one can train to be at peace with what is, which is the only possible reality. If you can't alter the ride, develop acceptance and equanimity rather than trying to hopelessly alter it.

When one fully sees that bad results follow bad actions like one falling domino pushing another domino making it fall, one will abstain from bad actions.

When one truly realizes the emptiness of the world, one will not have greed, anger or delusion to even think about committing bad deeds, and will develop dispassion and liberation from this bondage of conditionality.
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kirk5a
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by kirk5a »

Alex123 wrote:
kirk5a wrote: I'm looking for something along the lines of beings as leaves in the wind, marionettes, billard balls, unrolling balls of string... did he teach that?

In VsM there is:
I asked about what the Buddha taught. These much later sources do not even purport to be the Buddha's words.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Alex123
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Alex123 »

kirk5a wrote: I asked about what the Buddha taught.
Strict conditionality. If he knew the causes, then he would know all the effects given those causes.

"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that." - Ud 1.3
"the Tathagata understands as it actually is the results of actions undertaken, past, future and present, with possibilities and with causes." - MN12

According to Ptsm found in Sutta Pitaka, Buddha had omniscient knowledge.


1. If Buddha has omniscience, ex: that choice 'X' will occur.
2. Choice 'X' must occur.
3. I cannot choose to do any action which would make it so that choice 'X' does not occur.
4. Therefore, there is no any other choice possible but choice 'X'.
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kirk5a
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by kirk5a »

Alex123 wrote:
kirk5a wrote: I asked about what the Buddha taught.

"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that." - Ud 1.3
"the Tathagata understands as it actually is the results of actions undertaken, past, future and present, with possibilities and with causes." - MN12

According to Ptsm found in Sutta Pitaka, Buddha had omniscient knowledge.
So that's it then. That's the entirety of what you're hanging all this on. No "leaves in the wind" there. No unrolling balls of string, no balls subjected to various forces, marionettes, falling dominos, and I don't see anything that says "You can't alter the ride"
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
kirk5a wrote: What is unethical, is that you are not taking into consideration the effect, within this grand scheme of causality, that the view of oneself as a marionette, would have.
Can the marionette, thinking of itself as a marionette, say to itself "I will not commit murder" ?
It also says to itself "I have no control over my actions"
Tilt wrote: Following Alex's point of view, we have no control of our committing murder, which puts murder on the same level as attaining awakening - just things that happen to us without our input for which we have no responsibility.
When one realizes that all things happen due to causes, and there are no really people, then if there is enough wisdom one will see the folly of getting angry.
Sure; no more responsibility and nothing you can do about it; just shut your eyes and take it, for what choice do you have? According to you, none. It is an ugly philosophy.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
kirk5a wrote: I asked about what the Buddha taught.

"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that." - Ud 1.3
"the Tathagata understands as it actually is the results of actions undertaken, past, future and present, with possibilities and with causes." - MN12

According to Ptsm found in Sutta Pitaka, Buddha had omniscient knowledge.
So that's it then. That's the entirety of what you're hanging all this on. No "leaves in the wind" there. No unrolling balls of string, no balls subjected to various forces, marionettes, falling dominos, and I don't see anything that says "You can't alter the ride"
It is an ugly distortion of the Buddha's teachings that is being offered us here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:It is an ugly distortion of the Buddha's teachings that ois being offered us here.
And dangerous. How would someone with tendencies to harm self or others in a variety of tempting but immoral ways take up the view "I can't alter the ride. I'm just a leaf in the wind. Everything that happens has to happen this way." ?

We can ask the former coke addict, I think he was pretty clear in what his response would have been to such a teaching. Bring on the nose candy then!

Never would I dare to interpret the Buddha's teachings in such a fashion. And here on the internet for the whole world to see, and take up those views if they find the arguments a convincing "right view" (!)

Our words have effects, our views have effects, the views we convince others of, have effects, are we ready to take responsibility for those effects in line with causality?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:It is an ugly distortion of the Buddha's teachings that ois being offered us here.
And dangerous. How would someone with tendencies to harm self or others in a variety of tempting but immoral ways take up the view "I can't alter the ride. I'm just a leaf in the wind. Everything that happens has to happen this way." ?

We can ask the former coke addict, I think he was pretty clear in what his response would have been to such a teaching. Bring on the nose candy then!

Never would I dare to interpret the Buddha's teachings in such a fashion. And here on the internet for the whole world to see, and take up those views if they find the arguments a convincing "right view" (!)

Our words have effects, our views have effects, the views we convince others of, have effects, are we ready to take responsibility for those effects in line with causality?
Basically, Alex is offering us the Dastardly Dinosaur The-Causes-Made-Me-Do-It approach to the Buddha's teachings.

Image
It is not what the Buddha taught.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Virgo
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by Virgo »

tiltbillings wrote: Basically, Alex is offering us the Dastardly Dinosaur The-Causes-Made-Me-Do-It approach to the Buddha's teachings.
I don't think he is. I think he is offering us the we have choices idea, but that those choices are conditioned by our past experiences and accumulations, feelings based on those experiences and so forth, which are based themselves on more on past experiences and thought patterns and so on which are conditioned by other experiences and conditions, so that we make a choice but it is really just accumulated thoughts making the decision which are realistically all conditioned in and of themselves. This really doesn't deny choice in my eyes, it just means that all things, even choices, are conditioned by various, sometimes subtle factors, yet they are conditioned.

Perhaps I don't understand him clearly though.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:.

Perhaps I don't understand him clearly though.
That is accurate.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Causes do not dictate results, they condition, influence results. Results, via choice, are not dominoes falling, fortunately.

So if causes do not dictate results and results are not dominoes falling due to their cause: than wisdom (cause) could be just as likely to produce Awakening (result) as ignorance could produce Awakening. One could equally become awakened by following the path or not-following the path. Fire could equally result in water, as water could result in fire. This is why I believe that strict-conditionality helps the Dhamma, rather than makes it irrelevant.
Taking your falling dominoes position seriously, there is no following the path. It is being pushed relentlessly, without choice, in whatever direction by the dead mechanical causality that acts upon us. Speaking of following the path is meaningless.
If things could occur randomly and without a cause, then it would not make sense to do anything because nothing would be a strict cause for its effect.
For you it is either an absolute dead mechanical causality or utter chaos. Fortunately such stark black and white thinking does not reflect human beings' reality.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Craig,
clw_uk wrote: So there is a choice then yes? Choice is conditioned but if it is fully, 100% conditioned one way then this is determinism since the action it takes is already determined by the conditioning
Yes, this determinism, and what it actually means in practice, is a rather difficult and subtle point that is discussed in the references I gave here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 80#p101086" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I doubt that anyone is arguing that phenomena arise randomly. That would certainly defeat the law of kamma, and so on.
As would dominoes falling determinism.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

Post by kirk5a »

WHOOPS!

"the Tathagata understands as it actually is the results of actions undertaken, past, future and present, with possibilities and with causes." - MN12

What's this? Possibilities? Hasn't the Buddha been characterized by some here as speaking only of causes and effects, and not possibilities? Of certainties, not possibilities? What is the meaning of understanding the results of actions taken... with possibilities?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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